An examination of the reasons which T.C.
vseth to proue the perpetuall equitie. &c. of elections
by the people.

Chap .5. the .1. Diuision.
T.C. Pag .32. Sect .8.

IT is sayde amongst the Lawyers, and in deede reason, which is the lawe of all nations confirmeth
it, Quod omnium interest, ab omnibus approbari debet. That which standeth all men vppon,
should be approued of all men. which lawe hath this sense, that if it may be, it were good that
those things, which shall binde all men, and which require the obedience of all, should be concluded
as farre as may be, by the consent of all, or at least by the consent of as many as may be gotten. And
therefore it draweth muche the obedience of the subiects of this realme, that the statutes whereby
the realme is gouerned, passe by the consent of the moste parte of it, why lest they be made by them,
whome the rest put in trust, and choose for that purpose, beeing as it were all their actes.

Io. Whitgifte.

You vse for your purpose a rule of the lawe, which you doe not vnderstande, nor
rightly interprete: for where as this worde Debet, importeth a necessitie, you expound
it as a word of curtesie, saying: if it may be, and it were good to be concluded: when as the
lawe sayth, Debet approbari, it ought to be allowed. And reason wil the same, that where
many men haue interest in any thing, or haue any thing in common, whereof euery
of them hath a priuate interest, right, or propertie, there euery mans consent should
be had: as if a house, or any other thing be common among halfe a dosen men by purchase,
discent, or gifte, and fiue of them would burden that thing with any charge, or
doe any acte to preiudice the sixte man, it shall not bynde him without his consent:
for them this rule is true. Furthermore a thing is sayde, omnes tangere, to perteyne to
all, whiche is common eyther Pluribus vt vniuersis, or else Pluribus vt singulis. In the
first kinde, are those things that perteyne to bodies politike, as the body of a whole
common wealth, Citie, Borough, Towne, Colledge, Churche.&c. Wherein (as the
Lawyers say) this rule hath no force. The reason of the lawe is, bicause it beeing
almost an impossible thing, for all men in suche a body to agree in one, and there
beeing amongst men for the most parte (as it were) a naturall inclination to dissent,
and disagree one from another, their should neuer any law or order be made, if euery
singular mans consent should of necessitie be had: It is therfore sufficient in such places
and matters, if the lawes, statutes, and customes of the place be obserued.
Wherefore the rule hathe onely place in the seconde: that is, in thinges that are
common Pluribus vt singulis, to many seuerally, that is, wherein euery man hath a
proprietie and particular righte: as it is properly in landes, possessions. &c. in the
whiche the Minister can not be comprehended: for it were a greate absurditie,

that in the election of the minister euery singular mans consent shoulde of necessitie
be required: for then if any one frowarde man in the whole parishe were disposed to
withstande the election, it could neuer be ended: and this muste necessarily come to
passe, if you will buylde vpon this lawe.
And yet in suche cases this law admitteth this generall exception, if there be especiall
reason and cause why that thing whiche concerneth many, shoulde be done by
some other way, rather than by the consent of them, which haue interest. And these
are taken for good reasons in this case: Fyrst, if it be rather behouefull for the common
wealth, and Church of God so do that which concerneth a number, some other
way, rather than by the consent of euery particular man. Secondly, if it be for
the more quiet estate of the common wealth, not to haue their consent. Thirdly, if it
be better for the parties themselues, to haue it otherwise prouided. Last of all, if it be
agaynst the lawes of God, or of the customes and lawes of any countrey.
If I were a Lawyer, I could tell you, that this lawe admitteth many exceptions.
What is more expedient for all men, than to haue a good Prince, good Councellors,
good Iudges. &c. and yet I thinke it were most pernicious to haue those offices committed
to the election of the people.
But what neede I striue with you in this matter? For if those thinges that be
concluded by Parliament, be by the consent of the moste parte of the Realme, bycause the
peoples consent is there in their knightes of their shires, and other Burgeses (as in
deede it is, whiche you also confesse) then haue you no more to saye in this matter:
for the booke of ordering Ministers and Deacons. &c. is allowed and graunted by
Parliament, and therefore the Bishops and Ministers of this Church of Englande
are chosen by the consent of the people, nay (which is more) of the whole Realme,
bicause they are ordeyned and chosen according to that order and rule, whiche the
whole realme in Parliament hath made and bound them selues vnto.
But (by the way) if this grounde of lawe be good in that sense that you alleage it,
and be transferred to the ciuill state, it will be founde very daungerous, and too too
muche sauouring of popularitie: as in deede the whole course of your doctrine is.



The disorder of suche popular elections hath beene suche, the contentions moues
in them so great, the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious, the
partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes, freends, or landlords. &c.
so vntollerable, to be short, the lacke of iudgement & discretion in many of them so apparant,
that that maner of electing vpon great co~siderations hath bin altred in diuers
places, & desired to be altred in others also, by al those that are wise and discrete, & that
wish for quietnesse and good gouernment. Neihter is it true, that the election of those
officers which you name, is euery where in the people. In the best ordered Cities

P.ij.

and townes it is otherwise: and experience dothe teache, that those offices whyche
are in the Princes bestowing, and some other to whome she committeth the same,
are the best bestowed, and vpon the moste worthyest persons, as Bishoprikes, the
offices of Iudges, Iustices. &c.
In ecclesiasticall affayres, it is muche meeter, that suche as haue knowledge,
zeale, and care for the people, shoulde place ouer them a meete and fitte Pastor, than
that the chayse of him should be committed to the multitude, whiche is not onely for
the most part ignorant, but carelesse in suche matters, yea and oftentimes euill disposed,
and commonly led by affection, as freendship, hatred, feare. &c.
I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe, bicause they be voyde of reason:
For as Chrysostome sayth, Oues sunt, sed rationales, They are sheepe, but suche as
are indued with reason. And God dothe at one time or other (if they be his) open his
truthe vnto them, and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixt true and
false doctrine, in those things that doe perteyne to their saluation. But bicause God
dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them, are they therfore alwayes voyde of
affection and errour? or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion, is it therefore
common to all, or to the moste parte? Indeede if you speake of the inuisible Churche,
whiche is onely of the electe, then is it something that you say: but if you speake of
the visible Churche, whiche is a mixture of good and euill, and wherein the euill are
the greate number, then hath you saying no probabilitie in it. And why may not
the Pope as well reason of this place. 1. Cor. 2: that he can not erre in matters of religion,
as you may, that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their Pastors? For
he dothe alleage this texte for him selfe to the same purpose: but the meaning of the
Apostle is this: that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God,
hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God, and is able to discerne the truthe
from falshood. You can no more proue therefore, by this sentence, that the Parishes
can not erre in chosing their Pastors, than the Pope may doe that himselfe, generall
Councels and the Church can not erre: and surely the more I consider the matter,
the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this text.



This reason is buylded vpon a false ground: for it is certayn that many Pastors
are dearely beloued of their flockes, whiche neyther were elected by them, desired of
them, nor knowne vnto them before. And I think verily that there is not one parish
in Englande which doth the worse loue or reuerence their Pastors in that respect, except
such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed, not onely with the spirite of discorde,
but of disdayne, and contempt also towards all lawes, orders, and persons,
that be not in all poynte framed according to their imaginations. But woulde you
that Papisticall parish (such as there may be
diuers in England) should choose their
pastor, that they might loue him? Surely then would they not choose a Protestant.
Or do men always continue in louing of those, whom they haue chosen? You know
that experience teacheth the contrarie: so long only do they loue him, as he pleaseth

them, and serueth their affections, whiche bicause he neither can nor ought to doe,
therfore their affection of loue is soone quenched: and they beginne to hate and to
contemne him, and the rather bicause they dyd choose him. For in that respecte they
thinke him more bounde to please them.



What scripture haue you to proue, that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete
minister, then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter
&c. and if they will not, then to bring it to the next Synode: if that will not serue, then
that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election, to another
more conuenient? Where haue you I say, either commaundement, or example of
any suche order in the whole scripture? Will you of your owne head and brayne take
vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all scripture? And dare you so boldly condemne
an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as this of Englande is,
bicause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture? Men
may see if they be not blinde, what your meaning is. You thinke per aduenture that if
this were once brought to passe, it should not be long or you were placed somewhere,
according to your desire. The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others: looke
Zuinglius in his Ecclesi.
But to come to a neerer examination of this your deuise: First, you haue forgotten
your selfe, for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul saith. 1. Cor. 2.
Spiritualis
omnia dijudicat: he that is spirituall discerneth all things. &c. That they were spirituall,
and therefore could not be without discretion of ordering themselues in choosing
their pastor: and nowe you say, if any Churche should by the most part choose some vnmeete
man. &c. Whereby you confesse that they maye be deceyued, contrarie to your former wordes.
Secondly, your order is moste vnperfite, & full of intollerable inconueniences: for
who shal complayne of this election to other Churches? And when co~playnt is made,
who shall call them togither? when they be called togither, what order shal be taken
for the auoyding of confusion & tumult? or who shall beare their charges? or in what
place shal they meete, or how often? Likewise If the Churches round about do fayle in this
dutie. &c. who shall bring it to the next Synode? or who shall summon the Synode? or in
what place shal it be kept? or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor, vntill the
matter be determined? or who shal co~playne to the Prince or magistrate? or what if the
Prince wil not driue them to a new election, but allow of the olde? Do you not see of what
disorder, contentions, tumults, & inconueniences this your disordered order would be
the cause? For how many meetings of Churches should we haue? howe many Synodes?
what partes taking? what running vp and downe? what losse of time? what
cause of offence? what quarels? yea what not?
But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to ye Prince or magistrate
a good office, that he must stande & beholde al this, & in the ende onely driue the parishe to
a newe election, which also you say that he must doe. Throughout your whole booke you
take fro~ the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters, and giue

P.iij.

vnto him no more, (as I haue before declared) than the very Papistes doe, that is
potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris. For he must onely at your commaundemente
execute such lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised. Agayne, considering
the great number of Parishes in this realme, the varietie of mens myndes,
the diuersitie of opinions in Religion, and the generall inclination in the heartes of
men to dissent and disagree among them selues, it can not be, but that in short space
the Prince should be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering
of these confused and tumultuous elections: so that she muste be constrayned to let
passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe, and be wholly troubled
with hearing and redressing these matters. Wherefore to conclude, if you haue no
better reasons for your popular elections than these, I thinke it will be long before
you can persuade any reasonable or wise man, to subscribe vnto it. But nowe to the
defense of my owne reasons.



I remember my selfe very well, & I also remember that no learned writer olde
or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue saide: you onely saye that in the Apostles
time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not only throughout all Asia which is the greatest
part of the world but a great part of Affrica & no smal portion of Europe, you proue it not, either
by Scripture, storie, or anye good writer. The Gospell I graunte was preached
in al these parts of ye world, yet was it not generally receiued in any one part
of the world, no not in any citie, not as Ierusalem, wher al ye Apostles were, not in
any the least towne. There were Christians at Ierusalem, at Antioche, at Ephesus, at
Rome. &c. But not the tenth part in any of these, or other places, in comparison to the
Iewes, and the Gentils that were ther, and not Christia~s. In the Apostles time the
visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in co~parison, to ye times that
followed, when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ, & had Christian
Magistrates. I speake not of ye dispersing of the Gospel into diuers places, which
I know was in the Apostles time, for that co~maundement had they of Christ, that
they should go into the whole world. &c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians
gathered togither in one place. In the Apostles time (as I sayd before) no one country
or kingdome, no one citie, no one towne, did wholy professe Christ, or for ye most
part: now whole kingdomes, whole countries, whole nations, professe him.
When Matthias was chosen, the whole Church, was gathered togither in one
place. And so was it when the Deacons were chosen. Which thing now is vnpossible,
bycause of the multitude: so that thoughe the election might be by the whole
Church in the Apostles time, when it was togither in one place, yet can it not be so
now, seeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to co~teine it. It might wel be that
the people in euery citie might meete in one place without confusion or tumult in ye
Apostles time, when as scarce the .xx. part of the citie were Christians: but it ca~not
be so now, when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of ye multitude of
Christians gathered togither in one place, not of the multitude dispersed throughout
the whole world, though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians
then dispersed through the whole world, is comparable to the number of Christia~s
which at this day be in Europe.
How few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed,
being aboue .40 yeares after Christ? Doth not Eusebius .Li. 3.cap.5 testifie that they al
were receiued into a little towne called Pella? and yet the Apostles had spent much
time & laboure in preaching there: but the number of such as did not professe Christ
was infinite in that citie at that time, if we beleeue histories, & especially Iosephus
de bello Iuda. Lib.7.cap.17. wherfore your opinio~ of ye multitude of Christians in the Apostles time, in comparison to those that be now, is but a very dreame.
It is a very good reason to say, that bycause the Churche was then vnder
the Crosse, therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell
(for so do I say) bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors do increase
rather than diminishe in the time of persecution, yet is it not so with hipocrites, and
dissemblers, who would seeme to professe the Gospell, & whom also we must count
professors, bycause we see not their harts. This is manifest by this example. In the
time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie, how many was ther in
London that seemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same: but when the
time of persecution came vnder Queene Marie, what became of that number? how
few was there then in comparison? do you not thinke that if God should send a triall
there would be found in that citie many false brethren: Moreouer in the time of
prosperitie true Christians may without danger shew themselues, and remaine in
their cities, though the number be neuer so great: but in the time of persecutio~ they
are dispersed into sundry places.
We may learne in the .8. of the Actes, that the Church wholy remained at Ierusalem,

P.iiij.

vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer, and that then they were
dispersed: shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason
of persecution, were few in comparison? True it is that, this dispersing was the
cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged, yet in the meane time was the
number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished. Thus then you maye
vnderstande if you please, that this is a good reason to say, the Church was then
in persecution, and therefore very few in comparison, that embraced
the Gospell, both in the respect of the visible Church generally, and also in respect
of the same Churche particularly in euery countrey or citie. And yet it is true that

Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiæ.

The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche, but
that seede must haue time to grow in: and I speake of the externall professors of the
Gospell.
That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the keeping together and
often meeting of such Churches as be persecuted, confirmeth my meaning, for I saye
they kept together in the time of persecution, and you affirme the same, wherevpon I
also conclude, that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another.
And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as
theirs is, or rather more frequent, yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with
another, or to consider one another, or to knowe one another as they haue, for they
then admitte none into their societie at their meetings, but such as are knowen to be
brethren, and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall. And I thinke that
those which haue been exercised eyther in Fraunce, or elsewhere, in any suche time
of persecutio~, know it is to be true, that they know none so throughly, or are acquainted
with none so intirely, as with such who haue been with them in the time of persecution.
You wold fayne if you coulde, confute a knowne truth, and a manifest thing:
for who would denie, but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution, muste
of necessitie be knowne among themselues, and beste iudge who is fittest among
them, for any function?

Chap. 5. the .2. Diuision.

T.C. Pag. 33. Sect. 1.

So is it also when the question is to choose the Magistrate, Mayre, or Bayliffe, or Constable
of euery towne, whiche things if they haue grounds in ciuill affayres, they haue muche better
in Ecclesiasticall. For it is muche more vnreasonable, that there shoulde be thrust vpon me, a gouernour,
of whome the euerlasting saluation or damnation bothe of my body and soule dothe depende,
than him of whome my wealth and commoditie of this lyfe dothe hang. Unlesse those vpon
whome he were thrust, were fooles, or madde men, or children, without all discretion of ordering
them selues, whiche as I will shewe, cannot agree with those, that are the Churche of God, and
are to haue a Pastor. For they of the Churche of God, although they be called sheepe in respecte
of their simplicitie and harmlesnesse, yet are they also for their circumspection wyse as serpents, in
the wisedome, especially whiche is to saluation: and howe vyle account soeuer you wyll make
of them, they are the people of God, and therefore spirituall, and foorthwith those of whome S.
Paule sayth, the spirituall man discerneth all things.

Io. Whitgifte.

The disorder of suche popular elections hath beene suche, the contentions moues
in them so great, the ambition of the persons standing in election so notorious, the
partiall affection of the people inclining to their kinsfolkes, freends, or landlords. &c.
so vntollerable, to be short, the lacke of iudgement & discretion in many of them so apparant,
that that maner of electing vpon great co~siderations hath bin altred in diuers
places, & desired to be altred in others also, by al those that are wise and discrete, & that
wish for quietnesse and good gouernment. Neihter is it true, that the election of those
officers which you name, is euery where in the people. In the best ordered Cities

P.ij.

and townes it is otherwise: and experience dothe teache, that those offices whyche
are in the Princes bestowing, and some other to whome she committeth the same,
are the best bestowed, and vpon the moste worthyest persons, as Bishoprikes, the
offices of Iudges, Iustices. &c.
In ecclesiasticall affayres, it is muche meeter, that suche as haue knowledge,
zeale, and care for the people, shoulde place ouer them a meete and fitte Pastor, than
that the chayse of him should be committed to the multitude, whiche is not onely for
the most part ignorant, but carelesse in suche matters, yea and oftentimes euill disposed,
and commonly led by affection, as freendship, hatred, feare. &c.
I knowe that Christian men are not called sheepe, bicause they be voyde of reason:
For as Chrysostome sayth, Oues sunt, sed rationales, They are sheepe, but suche as
are indued with reason. And God dothe at one time or other (if they be his) open his
truthe vnto them, and indueth them with the spirite of discerning betwixt true and
false doctrine, in those things that doe perteyne to their saluation. But bicause God
dothe in his good time open his truthe vnto them, are they therfore alwayes voyde of
affection and errour? or bicause some haue this spirite of discretion, is it therefore
common to all, or to the moste parte? Indeede if you speake of the inuisible Churche,
whiche is onely of the electe, then is it something that you say: but if you speake of
the visible Churche, whiche is a mixture of good and euill, and wherein the euill are
the greate number, then hath you saying no probabilitie in it. And why may not
the Pope as well reason of this place. 1. Cor. 2: that he can not erre in matters of religion,
as you may, that Parishes can not be deceyued in electing their Pastors? For
he dothe alleage this texte for him selfe to the same purpose: but the meaning of the
Apostle is this: that he onely whiche is ruled and gouerned by the spirite of God,
hath the true knowledge of the mysteries of God, and is able to discerne the truthe
from falshood. You can no more proue therefore, by this sentence, that the Parishes
can not erre in chosing their Pastors, than the Pope may doe that himselfe, generall
Councels and the Church can not erre: and surely the more I consider the matter,
the more I maruell what your meaning is in alleaging this text.



This reason is buylded vpon a false ground: for it is certayn that many Pastors
are dearely beloued of their flockes, whiche neyther were elected by them, desired of
them, nor knowne vnto them before. And I think verily that there is not one parish
in Englande which doth the worse loue or reuerence their Pastors in that respect, except
such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed, not onely with the spirite of discorde,
but of disdayne, and contempt also towards all lawes, orders, and persons,
that be not in all poynte framed according to their imaginations. But woulde you
that Papisticall parish (such as there may be
diuers in England) should choose their
pastor, that they might loue him? Surely then would they not choose a Protestant.
Or do men always continue in louing of those, whom they haue chosen? You know
that experience teacheth the contrarie: so long only do they loue him, as he pleaseth

them, and serueth their affections, whiche bicause he neither can nor ought to doe,
therfore their affection of loue is soone quenched: and they beginne to hate and to
contemne him, and the rather bicause they dyd choose him. For in that respecte they
thinke him more bounde to please them.



What scripture haue you to proue, that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete
minister, then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter
&c. and if they will not, then to bring it to the next Synode: if that will not serue, then
that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election, to another
more conuenient? Where haue you I say, either commaundement, or example of
any suche order in the whole scripture? Will you of your owne head and brayne take
vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all scripture? And dare you so boldly condemne
an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as this of Englande is,
bicause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture? Men
may see if they be not blinde, what your meaning is. You thinke per aduenture that if
this were once brought to passe, it should not be long or you were placed somewhere,
according to your desire. The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others: looke
Zuinglius in his Ecclesi.
But to come to a neerer examination of this your deuise: First, you haue forgotten
your selfe, for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul saith. 1. Cor. 2.
Spiritualis
omnia dijudicat: he that is spirituall discerneth all things. &c. That they were spirituall,
and therefore could not be without discretion of ordering themselues in choosing
their pastor: and nowe you say, if any Churche should by the most part choose some vnmeete
man. &c. Whereby you confesse that they maye be deceyued, contrarie to your former wordes.
Secondly, your order is moste vnperfite, & full of intollerable inconueniences: for
who shal complayne of this election to other Churches? And when co~playnt is made,
who shall call them togither? when they be called togither, what order shal be taken
for the auoyding of confusion & tumult? or who shall beare their charges? or in what
place shal they meete, or how often? Likewise If the Churches round about do fayle in this
dutie. &c. who shall bring it to the next Synode? or who shall summon the Synode? or in
what place shal it be kept? or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor, vntill the
matter be determined? or who shal co~playne to the Prince or magistrate? or what if the
Prince wil not driue them to a new election, but allow of the olde? Do you not see of what
disorder, contentions, tumults, & inconueniences this your disordered order would be
the cause? For how many meetings of Churches should we haue? howe many Synodes?
what partes taking? what running vp and downe? what losse of time? what
cause of offence? what quarels? yea what not?
But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to ye Prince or magistrate
a good office, that he must stande & beholde al this, & in the ende onely driue the parishe to
a newe election, which also you say that he must doe. Throughout your whole booke you
take fro~ the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters, and giue

P.iij.

vnto him no more, (as I haue before declared) than the very Papistes doe, that is
potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris. For he must onely at your commaundemente
execute such lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised. Agayne, considering
the great number of Parishes in this realme, the varietie of mens myndes,
the diuersitie of opinions in Religion, and the generall inclination in the heartes of
men to dissent and disagree among them selues, it can not be, but that in short space
the Prince should be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering
of these confused and tumultuous elections: so that she muste be constrayned to let
passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe, and be wholly troubled
with hearing and redressing these matters. Wherefore to conclude, if you haue no
better reasons for your popular elections than these, I thinke it will be long before
you can persuade any reasonable or wise man, to subscribe vnto it. But nowe to the
defense of my owne reasons.



I remember my selfe very well, & I also remember that no learned writer olde
or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue saide: you onely saye that in the Apostles
time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not only throughout all Asia which is the greatest
part of the world but a great part of Affrica & no smal portion of Europe, you proue it not, either
by Scripture, storie, or anye good writer. The Gospell I graunte was preached
in al these parts of ye world, yet was it not generally receiued in any one part
of the world, no not in any citie, not as Ierusalem, wher al ye Apostles were, not in
any the least towne. There were Christians at Ierusalem, at Antioche, at Ephesus, at
Rome. &c. But not the tenth part in any of these, or other places, in comparison to the
Iewes, and the Gentils that were ther, and not Christia~s. In the Apostles time the
visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in co~parison, to ye times that
followed, when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ, & had Christian
Magistrates. I speake not of ye dispersing of the Gospel into diuers places, which
I know was in the Apostles time, for that co~maundement had they of Christ, that
they should go into the whole world. &c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians
gathered togither in one place. In the Apostles time (as I sayd before) no one country
or kingdome, no one citie, no one towne, did wholy professe Christ, or for ye most
part: now whole kingdomes, whole countries, whole nations, professe him.
When Matthias was chosen, the whole Church, was gathered togither in one
place. And so was it when the Deacons were chosen. Which thing now is vnpossible,
bycause of the multitude: so that thoughe the election might be by the whole
Church in the Apostles time, when it was togither in one place, yet can it not be so
now, seeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to co~teine it. It might wel be that
the people in euery citie might meete in one place without confusion or tumult in ye
Apostles time, when as scarce the .xx. part of the citie were Christians: but it ca~not
be so now, when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of ye multitude of
Christians gathered togither in one place, not of the multitude dispersed throughout
the whole world, though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians
then dispersed through the whole world, is comparable to the number of Christia~s
which at this day be in Europe.
How few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed,
being aboue .40 yeares after Christ? Doth not Eusebius .Li. 3.cap.5 testifie that they al
were receiued into a little towne called Pella? and yet the Apostles had spent much
time & laboure in preaching there: but the number of such as did not professe Christ
was infinite in that citie at that time, if we beleeue histories, & especially Iosephus
de bello Iuda. Lib.7.cap.17. wherfore your opinio~ of ye multitude of Christians in the Apostles time, in comparison to those that be now, is but a very dreame.
It is a very good reason to say, that bycause the Churche was then vnder
the Crosse, therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell
(for so do I say) bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors do increase
rather than diminishe in the time of persecution, yet is it not so with hipocrites, and
dissemblers, who would seeme to professe the Gospell, & whom also we must count
professors, bycause we see not their harts. This is manifest by this example. In the
time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie, how many was ther in
London that seemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same: but when the
time of persecution came vnder Queene Marie, what became of that number? how
few was there then in comparison? do you not thinke that if God should send a triall
there would be found in that citie many false brethren: Moreouer in the time of
prosperitie true Christians may without danger shew themselues, and remaine in
their cities, though the number be neuer so great: but in the time of persecutio~ they
are dispersed into sundry places.
We may learne in the .8. of the Actes, that the Church wholy remained at Ierusalem,

P.iiij.

vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer, and that then they were
dispersed: shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason
of persecution, were few in comparison? True it is that, this dispersing was the
cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged, yet in the meane time was the
number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished. Thus then you maye
vnderstande if you please, that this is a good reason to say, the Church was then
in persecution, and therefore very few in comparison, that embraced
the Gospell, both in the respect of the visible Church generally, and also in respect
of the same Churche particularly in euery countrey or citie. And yet it is true that

Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiæ.

The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche, but
that seede must haue time to grow in: and I speake of the externall professors of the
Gospell.
That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the keeping together and
often meeting of such Churches as be persecuted, confirmeth my meaning, for I saye
they kept together in the time of persecution, and you affirme the same, wherevpon I
also conclude, that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another.
And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as
theirs is, or rather more frequent, yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with
another, or to consider one another, or to knowe one another as they haue, for they
then admitte none into their societie at their meetings, but such as are knowen to be
brethren, and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall. And I thinke that
those which haue been exercised eyther in Fraunce, or elsewhere, in any suche time
of persecutio~, know it is to be true, that they know none so throughly, or are acquainted
with none so intirely, as with such who haue been with them in the time of persecution.
You wold fayne if you coulde, confute a knowne truth, and a manifest thing:
for who would denie, but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution, muste
of necessitie be knowne among themselues, and beste iudge who is fittest among
them, for any function?

Chap. 5. the .3. Diuision.

T.C. Pag. 33. Sect. 2.

Moreouer, reason and experience teacheth, that it maketh much to the profiting of the Church
vnder the hande of the Pastor or Bishop, that the Churche loue him and reuerence him. For the
contempt and hatred of the Minister for the moste parte, standeth not in his owne person, but reacheth
euen onto the doctrine whiche he teacheth. But the Minister that the Churche desireth, it
commonly best loueth and most reuerenceth, and of the other side, hateth and contemneth him, that
is thrust vpon them, therefore it maketh muche to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the
Gospell, that the Minister come in, by their consent. Likewyse the people must by S. Paule his
rule, followe the good example of the Minister: But men will not likely followe their examples,
whome they loue not, nor loue them. which are thrust vpon them agaynst their willes. Therefore
it standeth with the good conuersation and godly following of the steppes of the Minister, that he be
with the consent of the Church.

Io. Whitgifte.

This reason is buylded vpon a false ground: for it is certayn that many Pastors
are dearely beloued of their flockes, whiche neyther were elected by them, desired of
them, nor knowne vnto them before. And I think verily that there is not one parish
in Englande which doth the worse loue or reuerence their Pastors in that respect, except
such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed, not onely with the spirite of discorde,
but of disdayne, and contempt also towards all lawes, orders, and persons,
that be not in all poynte framed according to their imaginations. But woulde you
that Papisticall parish (such as there may be
diuers in England) should choose their
pastor, that they might loue him? Surely then would they not choose a Protestant.
Or do men always continue in louing of those, whom they haue chosen? You know
that experience teacheth the contrarie: so long only do they loue him, as he pleaseth

them, and serueth their affections, whiche bicause he neither can nor ought to doe,
therfore their affection of loue is soone quenched: and they beginne to hate and to
contemne him, and the rather bicause they dyd choose him. For in that respecte they
thinke him more bounde to please them.



What scripture haue you to proue, that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete
minister, then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter
&c. and if they will not, then to bring it to the next Synode: if that will not serue, then
that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election, to another
more conuenient? Where haue you I say, either commaundement, or example of
any suche order in the whole scripture? Will you of your owne head and brayne take
vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all scripture? And dare you so boldly condemne
an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as this of Englande is,
bicause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture? Men
may see if they be not blinde, what your meaning is. You thinke per aduenture that if
this were once brought to passe, it should not be long or you were placed somewhere,
according to your desire. The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others: looke
Zuinglius in his Ecclesi.
But to come to a neerer examination of this your deuise: First, you haue forgotten
your selfe, for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul saith. 1. Cor. 2.
Spiritualis
omnia dijudicat: he that is spirituall discerneth all things. &c. That they were spirituall,
and therefore could not be without discretion of ordering themselues in choosing
their pastor: and nowe you say, if any Churche should by the most part choose some vnmeete
man. &c. Whereby you confesse that they maye be deceyued, contrarie to your former wordes.
Secondly, your order is moste vnperfite, & full of intollerable inconueniences: for
who shal complayne of this election to other Churches? And when co~playnt is made,
who shall call them togither? when they be called togither, what order shal be taken
for the auoyding of confusion & tumult? or who shall beare their charges? or in what
place shal they meete, or how often? Likewise If the Churches round about do fayle in this
dutie. &c. who shall bring it to the next Synode? or who shall summon the Synode? or in
what place shal it be kept? or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor, vntill the
matter be determined? or who shal co~playne to the Prince or magistrate? or what if the
Prince wil not driue them to a new election, but allow of the olde? Do you not see of what
disorder, contentions, tumults, & inconueniences this your disordered order would be
the cause? For how many meetings of Churches should we haue? howe many Synodes?
what partes taking? what running vp and downe? what losse of time? what
cause of offence? what quarels? yea what not?
But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to ye Prince or magistrate
a good office, that he must stande & beholde al this, & in the ende onely driue the parishe to
a newe election, which also you say that he must doe. Throughout your whole booke you
take fro~ the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters, and giue

P.iij.

vnto him no more, (as I haue before declared) than the very Papistes doe, that is
potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris. For he must onely at your commaundemente
execute such lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised. Agayne, considering
the great number of Parishes in this realme, the varietie of mens myndes,
the diuersitie of opinions in Religion, and the generall inclination in the heartes of
men to dissent and disagree among them selues, it can not be, but that in short space
the Prince should be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering
of these confused and tumultuous elections: so that she muste be constrayned to let
passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe, and be wholly troubled
with hearing and redressing these matters. Wherefore to conclude, if you haue no
better reasons for your popular elections than these, I thinke it will be long before
you can persuade any reasonable or wise man, to subscribe vnto it. But nowe to the
defense of my owne reasons.



I remember my selfe very well, & I also remember that no learned writer olde
or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue saide: you onely saye that in the Apostles
time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not only throughout all Asia which is the greatest
part of the world but a great part of Affrica & no smal portion of Europe, you proue it not, either
by Scripture, storie, or anye good writer. The Gospell I graunte was preached
in al these parts of ye world, yet was it not generally receiued in any one part
of the world, no not in any citie, not as Ierusalem, wher al ye Apostles were, not in
any the least towne. There were Christians at Ierusalem, at Antioche, at Ephesus, at
Rome. &c. But not the tenth part in any of these, or other places, in comparison to the
Iewes, and the Gentils that were ther, and not Christia~s. In the Apostles time the
visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in co~parison, to ye times that
followed, when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ, & had Christian
Magistrates. I speake not of ye dispersing of the Gospel into diuers places, which
I know was in the Apostles time, for that co~maundement had they of Christ, that
they should go into the whole world. &c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians
gathered togither in one place. In the Apostles time (as I sayd before) no one country
or kingdome, no one citie, no one towne, did wholy professe Christ, or for ye most
part: now whole kingdomes, whole countries, whole nations, professe him.
When Matthias was chosen, the whole Church, was gathered togither in one
place. And so was it when the Deacons were chosen. Which thing now is vnpossible,
bycause of the multitude: so that thoughe the election might be by the whole
Church in the Apostles time, when it was togither in one place, yet can it not be so
now, seeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to co~teine it. It might wel be that
the people in euery citie might meete in one place without confusion or tumult in ye
Apostles time, when as scarce the .xx. part of the citie were Christians: but it ca~not
be so now, when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of ye multitude of
Christians gathered togither in one place, not of the multitude dispersed throughout
the whole world, though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians
then dispersed through the whole world, is comparable to the number of Christia~s
which at this day be in Europe.
How few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed,
being aboue .40 yeares after Christ? Doth not Eusebius .Li. 3.cap.5 testifie that they al
were receiued into a little towne called Pella? and yet the Apostles had spent much
time & laboure in preaching there: but the number of such as did not professe Christ
was infinite in that citie at that time, if we beleeue histories, & especially Iosephus
de bello Iuda. Lib.7.cap.17. wherfore your opinio~ of ye multitude of Christians in the Apostles time, in comparison to those that be now, is but a very dreame.
It is a very good reason to say, that bycause the Churche was then vnder
the Crosse, therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell
(for so do I say) bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors do increase
rather than diminishe in the time of persecution, yet is it not so with hipocrites, and
dissemblers, who would seeme to professe the Gospell, & whom also we must count
professors, bycause we see not their harts. This is manifest by this example. In the
time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie, how many was ther in
London that seemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same: but when the
time of persecution came vnder Queene Marie, what became of that number? how
few was there then in comparison? do you not thinke that if God should send a triall
there would be found in that citie many false brethren: Moreouer in the time of
prosperitie true Christians may without danger shew themselues, and remaine in
their cities, though the number be neuer so great: but in the time of persecutio~ they
are dispersed into sundry places.
We may learne in the .8. of the Actes, that the Church wholy remained at Ierusalem,

P.iiij.

vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer, and that then they were
dispersed: shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason
of persecution, were few in comparison? True it is that, this dispersing was the
cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged, yet in the meane time was the
number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished. Thus then you maye
vnderstande if you please, that this is a good reason to say, the Church was then
in persecution, and therefore very few in comparison, that embraced
the Gospell, both in the respect of the visible Church generally, and also in respect
of the same Churche particularly in euery countrey or citie. And yet it is true that

Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiæ.

The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche, but
that seede must haue time to grow in: and I speake of the externall professors of the
Gospell.
That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the keeping together and
often meeting of such Churches as be persecuted, confirmeth my meaning, for I saye
they kept together in the time of persecution, and you affirme the same, wherevpon I
also conclude, that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another.
And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as
theirs is, or rather more frequent, yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with
another, or to consider one another, or to knowe one another as they haue, for they
then admitte none into their societie at their meetings, but such as are knowen to be
brethren, and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall. And I thinke that
those which haue been exercised eyther in Fraunce, or elsewhere, in any suche time
of persecutio~, know it is to be true, that they know none so throughly, or are acquainted
with none so intirely, as with such who haue been with them in the time of persecution.
You wold fayne if you coulde, confute a knowne truth, and a manifest thing:
for who would denie, but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution, muste
of necessitie be knowne among themselues, and beste iudge who is fittest among
them, for any function?

Chap. 5. the 4. Diuision.

T.C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3.

And if it should happen (which may come to passe) that any Church should vestre or choose,
or consente vpon by the moste parte, some that is vnmeete, either for doctrine or manners, then the
ministers & Elders of the other Churches round about, shoulde aduertise first, and afterwarde as
occasion shoulde serue. sharply and seuerely charge, that they forbeare suche election, or if it be
made, that they confirme it not, by suffering him to exercise any ministerie. And if either the Churches
rounde about do fayle of this dutie, or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in their
admonition, then to bring it to the nexte Synode, and if it rest not therin, then the Prince or Magistrate,
whiche muste see that nothing in the Churches be disorderly and wickedly done, ought to
driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient. Nowe I will examine the
reasons whiche you adde to proue, that althoughe in tymes past the Churche choosed their ministers,
yet nowe it must be otherwyse.

Io. Whitgifte.

What scripture haue you to proue, that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete
minister, then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter
&c. and if they will not, then to bring it to the next Synode: if that will not serue, then
that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election, to another
more conuenient? Where haue you I say, either commaundement, or example of
any suche order in the whole scripture? Will you of your owne head and brayne take
vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all scripture? And dare you so boldly condemne
an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as this of Englande is,
bicause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture? Men
may see if they be not blinde, what your meaning is. You thinke per aduenture that if
this were once brought to passe, it should not be long or you were placed somewhere,
according to your desire. The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others: looke
Zuinglius in his Ecclesi.
But to come to a neerer examination of this your deuise: First, you haue forgotten
your selfe, for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul saith. 1. Cor. 2.
Spiritualis
omnia dijudicat: he that is spirituall discerneth all things. &c. That they were spirituall,
and therefore could not be without discretion of ordering themselues in choosing
their pastor: and nowe you say, if any Churche should by the most part choose some vnmeete
man. &c. Whereby you confesse that they maye be deceyued, contrarie to your former wordes.
Secondly, your order is moste vnperfite, & full of intollerable inconueniences: for
who shal complayne of this election to other Churches? And when co~playnt is made,
who shall call them togither? when they be called togither, what order shal be taken
for the auoyding of confusion & tumult? or who shall beare their charges? or in what
place shal they meete, or how often? Likewise If the Churches round about do fayle in this
dutie. &c. who shall bring it to the next Synode? or who shall summon the Synode? or in
what place shal it be kept? or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor, vntill the
matter be determined? or who shal co~playne to the Prince or magistrate? or what if the
Prince wil not driue them to a new election, but allow of the olde? Do you not see of what
disorder, contentions, tumults, & inconueniences this your disordered order would be
the cause? For how many meetings of Churches should we haue? howe many Synodes?
what partes taking? what running vp and downe? what losse of time? what
cause of offence? what quarels? yea what not?
But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to ye Prince or magistrate
a good office, that he must stande & beholde al this, & in the ende onely driue the parishe to
a newe election, which also you say that he must doe. Throughout your whole booke you
take fro~ the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters, and giue

P.iij.

vnto him no more, (as I haue before declared) than the very Papistes doe, that is
potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris. For he must onely at your commaundemente
execute such lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised. Agayne, considering
the great number of Parishes in this realme, the varietie of mens myndes,
the diuersitie of opinions in Religion, and the generall inclination in the heartes of
men to dissent and disagree among them selues, it can not be, but that in short space
the Prince should be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering
of these confused and tumultuous elections: so that she muste be constrayned to let
passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe, and be wholly troubled
with hearing and redressing these matters. Wherefore to conclude, if you haue no
better reasons for your popular elections than these, I thinke it will be long before
you can persuade any reasonable or wise man, to subscribe vnto it. But nowe to the
defense of my owne reasons.



I remember my selfe very well, & I also remember that no learned writer olde
or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue saide: you onely saye that in the Apostles
time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not only throughout all Asia which is the greatest
part of the world but a great part of Affrica & no smal portion of Europe, you proue it not, either
by Scripture, storie, or anye good writer. The Gospell I graunte was preached
in al these parts of ye world, yet was it not generally receiued in any one part
of the world, no not in any citie, not as Ierusalem, wher al ye Apostles were, not in
any the least towne. There were Christians at Ierusalem, at Antioche, at Ephesus, at
Rome. &c. But not the tenth part in any of these, or other places, in comparison to the
Iewes, and the Gentils that were ther, and not Christia~s. In the Apostles time the
visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in co~parison, to ye times that
followed, when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ, & had Christian
Magistrates. I speake not of ye dispersing of the Gospel into diuers places, which
I know was in the Apostles time, for that co~maundement had they of Christ, that
they should go into the whole world. &c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians
gathered togither in one place. In the Apostles time (as I sayd before) no one country
or kingdome, no one citie, no one towne, did wholy professe Christ, or for ye most
part: now whole kingdomes, whole countries, whole nations, professe him.
When Matthias was chosen, the whole Church, was gathered togither in one
place. And so was it when the Deacons were chosen. Which thing now is vnpossible,
bycause of the multitude: so that thoughe the election might be by the whole
Church in the Apostles time, when it was togither in one place, yet can it not be so
now, seeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to co~teine it. It might wel be that
the people in euery citie might meete in one place without confusion or tumult in ye
Apostles time, when as scarce the .xx. part of the citie were Christians: but it ca~not
be so now, when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of ye multitude of
Christians gathered togither in one place, not of the multitude dispersed throughout
the whole world, though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians
then dispersed through the whole world, is comparable to the number of Christia~s
which at this day be in Europe.
How few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed,
being aboue .40 yeares after Christ? Doth not Eusebius .Li. 3.cap.5 testifie that they al
were receiued into a little towne called Pella? and yet the Apostles had spent much
time & laboure in preaching there: but the number of such as did not professe Christ
was infinite in that citie at that time, if we beleeue histories, & especially Iosephus
de bello Iuda. Lib.7.cap.17. wherfore your opinio~ of ye multitude of Christians in the Apostles time, in comparison to those that be now, is but a very dreame.
It is a very good reason to say, that bycause the Churche was then vnder
the Crosse, therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell
(for so do I say) bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors do increase
rather than diminishe in the time of persecution, yet is it not so with hipocrites, and
dissemblers, who would seeme to professe the Gospell, & whom also we must count
professors, bycause we see not their harts. This is manifest by this example. In the
time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie, how many was ther in
London that seemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same: but when the
time of persecution came vnder Queene Marie, what became of that number? how
few was there then in comparison? do you not thinke that if God should send a triall
there would be found in that citie many false brethren: Moreouer in the time of
prosperitie true Christians may without danger shew themselues, and remaine in
their cities, though the number be neuer so great: but in the time of persecutio~ they
are dispersed into sundry places.
We may learne in the .8. of the Actes, that the Church wholy remained at Ierusalem,

P.iiij.

vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer, and that then they were
dispersed: shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason
of persecution, were few in comparison? True it is that, this dispersing was the
cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged, yet in the meane time was the
number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished. Thus then you maye
vnderstande if you please, that this is a good reason to say, the Church was then
in persecution, and therefore very few in comparison, that embraced
the Gospell, both in the respect of the visible Church generally, and also in respect
of the same Churche particularly in euery countrey or citie. And yet it is true that

Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiæ.

The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche, but
that seede must haue time to grow in: and I speake of the externall professors of the
Gospell.
That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the keeping together and
often meeting of such Churches as be persecuted, confirmeth my meaning, for I saye
they kept together in the time of persecution, and you affirme the same, wherevpon I
also conclude, that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another.
And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as
theirs is, or rather more frequent, yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with
another, or to consider one another, or to knowe one another as they haue, for they
then admitte none into their societie at their meetings, but such as are knowen to be
brethren, and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall. And I thinke that
those which haue been exercised eyther in Fraunce, or elsewhere, in any suche time
of persecutio~, know it is to be true, that they know none so throughly, or are acquainted
with none so intirely, as with such who haue been with them in the time of persecution.
You wold fayne if you coulde, confute a knowne truth, and a manifest thing:
for who would denie, but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution, muste
of necessitie be knowne among themselues, and beste iudge who is fittest among
them, for any function?

The diuersitie betwixt the Apostles tymes
and oures, requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment, and of
ordeyning Ministers.

Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision.

Answere to the Admonition. Pag. 44. Sect. 2.

Fyrst, bicause in the Apostles tyme, the Churche was vnder the
crosse, and therefore very fewe in comparison was there, that embraced
the Gospell, and commonly they kept togither, or at the least
met oftentimes, so that one of them was throughly knowne to another,
and they them selues coulde best iudge who among them was
the fittest to teache and instructe, hauing alwayes diuers fit for that
function. Now the Church is in prosperitie, and therfore the number
that professeth, great, and dispersed into diuers places, and in moste
parishes not one fitte for the ministerie among them, or knowne vnto
them: so that they should call they knowe not whome.

T.C. Pag. 33. Sect. 4.

You say it was in the Apostles times vnder the Crosse, and therfore fewe, and so mighte easily
knowe one an other, who were fit for the ministerie. But you forget your selfe maruellously. For
in the Apostles tymes, the Churche (I meane visible and sensible, for else howe coulde it be persecuted)
was (1) sowen not onely throughout all Asia (which is the greatest parte of the worlde)
but throughe a great parte of Africa, and no small portion of Europe, and now it is shut in a small
corner of Europe, beeing altogither vanished out of Asia & Affrica: And therfore there are not the
(2) tithe nowe, of those that professed the Gospell then, and what a conclusion is this, the Churche
were fewe in number, because they were vnder the crosse.
For to let passe both other scriptures, and stories ecclesiasticall, haue you forgotten that whiche
is sayde in the first of Exodus, that the more the children of Israell were pressed and persecuted,
the more they multiplyed? Then you saye they kepte togither, and met often, and so knowing one
another, were best able to iudge one of another. But heerein you speake as one that hath small experience of persecuted Churches, for in the time of persecution, the Christians that were in one
great citie, were fayne to gather them selues out of all the corners, and from all the endes of the citie,
to one place, beeing not able to deuide themselues into many parishes, both for other considerations,
and because they were not able to maynteyne many ministers, and Elders and Deacons, so
that we reade that the Churche which was at Antioche, wrote vnto the Churche at Ierusalem,
and that of Ierusalem vnto them of Antioche, and S. Paule to the Churche at Rome, at Ephesus,
and at Philippos. &c. Which speeches do declare, that by al likelyhood, in one great citie, they
had but (3) one congregation, and therefore that muste needes be scattered heere and there, and so
could not haue the commoditie either of often meeting, or of knowing one an other, so wel, as where
suche a citie is deuided into many Churches. Those that knowe the estate of Fraunce in the tyme
of persecution, do well vnderstande, that euery Churche almost was gathered of townes, whereof
some were sixe miles, some seauen, some more, from the place of meeting, and keeping their congregations.
And therfore could not meete so often, nor knowe one an other so well, as we by the grece
of God may do, which meete oftener, and in lesse number than they do.

Io. Whitgifte.

I remember my selfe very well, & I also remember that no learned writer olde
or newe denyeth this to be true that I haue saide: you onely saye that in the Apostles
time the visible Church of Christ was sowne not only throughout all Asia which is the greatest
part of the world but a great part of Affrica & no smal portion of Europe, you proue it not, either
by Scripture, storie, or anye good writer. The Gospell I graunte was preached
in al these parts of ye world, yet was it not generally receiued in any one part
of the world, no not in any citie, not as Ierusalem, wher al ye Apostles were, not in
any the least towne. There were Christians at Ierusalem, at Antioche, at Ephesus, at
Rome. &c. But not the tenth part in any of these, or other places, in comparison to the
Iewes, and the Gentils that were ther, and not Christia~s. In the Apostles time the
visible Church of Christ at Rome was but an handful in co~parison, to ye times that
followed, when the whole citie was christened and professed Christ, & had Christian
Magistrates. I speake not of ye dispersing of the Gospel into diuers places, which
I know was in the Apostles time, for that co~maundement had they of Christ, that
they should go into the whole world. &c. but I speake of the multitude of Christians
gathered togither in one place. In the Apostles time (as I sayd before) no one country
or kingdome, no one citie, no one towne, did wholy professe Christ, or for ye most
part: now whole kingdomes, whole countries, whole nations, professe him.
When Matthias was chosen, the whole Church, was gathered togither in one
place. And so was it when the Deacons were chosen. Which thing now is vnpossible,
bycause of the multitude: so that thoughe the election might be by the whole
Church in the Apostles time, when it was togither in one place, yet can it not be so
now, seeing it is vnpossible for any one kingdome to co~teine it. It might wel be that
the people in euery citie might meete in one place without confusion or tumult in ye
Apostles time, when as scarce the .xx. part of the citie were Christians: but it ca~not
be so now, when whole cities professe Christ. Wherfore I speake of ye multitude of
Christians gathered togither in one place, not of the multitude dispersed throughout
the whole world, though it is not to be imagined that the number of the Christians
then dispersed through the whole world, is comparable to the number of Christia~s
which at this day be in Europe.
How few Christians was there at Ierusalem not long before it was destroyed,
being aboue .40 yeares after Christ? Doth not Eusebius .Li. 3.cap.5 testifie that they al
were receiued into a little towne called Pella? and yet the Apostles had spent much
time & laboure in preaching there: but the number of such as did not professe Christ
was infinite in that citie at that time, if we beleeue histories, & especially Iosephus
de bello Iuda. Lib.7.cap.17. wherfore your opinio~ of ye multitude of Christians in the Apostles time, in comparison to those that be now, is but a very dreame.
It is a very good reason to say, that bycause the Churche was then vnder
the Crosse, therefore fewe in comparison embraced the Gospell
(for so do I say) bycause notwithstanding the number of true professors do increase
rather than diminishe in the time of persecution, yet is it not so with hipocrites, and
dissemblers, who would seeme to professe the Gospell, & whom also we must count
professors, bycause we see not their harts. This is manifest by this example. In the
time of King Edward when the Gospell was in prosperitie, how many was ther in
London that seemed to be earnest and zealous professors of the same: but when the
time of persecution came vnder Queene Marie, what became of that number? how
few was there then in comparison? do you not thinke that if God should send a triall
there would be found in that citie many false brethren: Moreouer in the time of
prosperitie true Christians may without danger shew themselues, and remaine in
their cities, though the number be neuer so great: but in the time of persecutio~ they
are dispersed into sundry places.
We may learne in the .8. of the Actes, that the Church wholy remained at Ierusalem,

P.iiij.

vntill that persecution wherin Paule was a doer, and that then they were
dispersed: shall we not then say that at Ierusalem the number of Christians by reason
of persecution, were few in comparison? True it is that, this dispersing was the
cause why the Church of Christ was more enlarged, yet in the meane time was the
number of Christians at Ierusalem meruelously diminished. Thus then you maye
vnderstande if you please, that this is a good reason to say, the Church was then
in persecution, and therefore very few in comparison, that embraced
the Gospell, both in the respect of the visible Church generally, and also in respect
of the same Churche particularly in euery countrey or citie. And yet it is true that

Sanguis Martyrum est semen Ecclesiæ.

The bloud of Martyrs is the seede of the Churche, but
that seede must haue time to grow in: and I speake of the externall professors of the
Gospell.
That which you write to ouerthrow my words touching the keeping together and
often meeting of such Churches as be persecuted, confirmeth my meaning, for I saye
they kept together in the time of persecution, and you affirme the same, wherevpon I
also conclude, that therfore one of them must of necessitie be well knowne to another.
And althoughe our assemblies in time of prosperitie be peraduenture as frequent as
theirs is, or rather more frequent, yet haue we not such occasion to conferre one with
another, or to consider one another, or to knowe one another as they haue, for they
then admitte none into their societie at their meetings, but such as are knowen to be
brethren, and of whose Religion and zeale they haue good tryall. And I thinke that
those which haue been exercised eyther in Fraunce, or elsewhere, in any suche time
of persecutio~, know it is to be true, that they know none so throughly, or are acquainted
with none so intirely, as with such who haue been with them in the time of persecution.
You wold fayne if you coulde, confute a knowne truth, and a manifest thing:
for who would denie, but that such as kepe together in the time of persecution, muste
of necessitie be knowne among themselues, and beste iudge who is fittest among
them, for any function?

Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision.

Answere to the Admonition. Pag. 44. Sect. 3.

Secondly in the Apostles time, all or the most that were Christians
were vertuous and godly, and suche as dyd sincerely professe the
worde, and therfore the election of their pastour might safely be committed
to them: nowe the Church is ful of Hypocrites, dissemblers,
drunkardes, whoremongers. &c. so that if anye election were committed
to them, they woulde be sure to take one lyke to them selues.