A DIALOGE.

THE LAVYERE. Me semeth,
it is wisely and truly
said, that the right waye is
euer the nerest waye: & likewyse
the playne way moste
sure, to trye all maner of truth by.
THE
DIVYNE. I thinke that it be true, whiche
you speke: but you speke so obscurely,
that I wotte nere what you meane
therby. If you meane it by the ymitacyon
of Christ, whiche beareth witnesse
of him selfe, sayeng I am the right way,
I am the true way, and I am the perfyt
lyfe: thanne are you in the right. And if
you meane the playne waye to be moste
sure, because that Christe saieth he is the
doore by whiche we muste entre in, this
youre sayenge canne nat be amended.
whervnto god him selfe exhorteth vs also
by his prophete, sayenge ye christen men
loke ye iudge a right.
THE LAVYER.
The better for my purpose. For the cause
why I speke hit, is for the great weghtie
cause of christendome: concernynge the
kynges separation fro the quene. Hit is
tossyd and turned ouer the hye mountaynes,
laboured and vexed at Rome,

B

from iudge to iudge, without certayne
ende or effecte: beynge very perillous for
his hyghnesse, and moche more daungerous
(if god helpe nat) for vs his poore
and louinge subiectes. Whiche if it had
ben ordayned in the right and due cours,
that is to say within the realme, and so
by the metropolitane examyned and discussed,
as lawe & reason wolde it shulde
haue ben, there had ensued in this ryght
way or this tyme an honorable ende and
purpose: to the great welthe of this realme
and quietnes of christendome. The
lettars wherof what so euer they be, me
thinketh ought to be detestyd of all good
englysshe people and subiectes:
THE DIVINE.
One of the chefe lettars is
and hathe be the lawyers opinion: whiche
wolde attribute to the pope the heed
of their lawe al maner of power. wherby
beynge well descant (as they can well
ynoughe) at length shall be no lawe, but
onely his will. For and if he myght dispence
with goddes lawe and all other,
and ordren them as he will (as lawyers
say that he may) than what foly were it
to obserue goddes lawe or any other, but

onely inuestigate and serche to knowe the
popes wyll in euery thinge, and that to
folowe accordingly? whiche ones atteyned
were the lawyers hoole glory. For
who shulde be sette by thenne but onely
lawyers, bycause they extoll his authorytie
so hye?
THE LAVYERE. you
enserch and folowe the frenche prouerbe
to moche.
THE DIVINE. Whiche is
that?
THE LAVYERE. Who sercheth
fyndeth. For surely if without affection
we shulde speke, we lawyeres attribute
to moche authoritie bothe to our
maistre & to our selfes also.
THE DIVINE.
I haue harde verely fewe of
your secte so plainely confesse the truthe.
Neuerthelesse it is to my great comfort
to reme~bre that it is my fortune to mete
with so syncere a man beynge (as I trust)
so entierly my frende: which is dedicate
to truthe and nat to profession.
THE
LAVYERE. I wotte what I shuld do,
but I wotte nere what frayltie wyll lette
me do.
THE DIVINE. If wyll be
purely good, the olde prouerbe shall folowe.
Nihil difficile uolenti, God will ayde
the wel willer alway.
THE LAVYER.

B 2

That beynge true, and bicause you haue
some thinge touched vs lawyers: you
gyue me boldnesse farthermore to commune
with you, and to aske of you, if diuines
be nat partlye to blame as well as
we: that this great cause goeth no better
forwarde.
THE DIVINE. All I can
nat excuse. For some of vs be as heedy
as you: and yet our lernynge leadeth vs
nat to hit: as youres dothe you. For we
shulde onely regarde the maker of all
lawes and the mere truthe: and nat vanities
of this worlde, nor eke affections
THE LAVYERE. ye say well frende.
That wolde to our lorde the lerned men
of the worlde, moste specially of this realme
wolde folowe this lesson, and vse it
in dede. For as I perceyue & here, some
of them folowe more affections and respectes:
than goddes worde onely and
truthe.
THE DIVINE. Who taught
you I praye you, to hytte so truely the
nayle on the heed? I thinke in dede that
if worldlynesse were nat loked for, there
wolde mo agree to the truthe than hytherto
hath: tho there by a meruaylous
great nombre that hath agreed thereto

all redy in dede.
THE LAVYERE.
That worldly respectes may happe to
fayle them, that trusteth therto: & where
be they than? Me thinketh farthermore
a great foly in them to auenture vpon so
sklendre a grou~de both soule and body.
THE DIVINE. Truthe ye say, wherof
is great pitie, that lerned men specially,
regarde nat more the world to come
than the worlde present: and that they
vnyte nat them selfe in opinion. Whiche
thing sheweth a great lacke of grace, and
an ouermoche addiction to priuate appetites,
mixed with to moche heedinesse
and obstinacy. And yet there is but one
truth in this matter.
THE LAVYERE.
I meruayle than, why many thus call
this matter disputable, seynge that there
is but one truthe therein: and why that
truth is nat imbraced and ope~ly shewed
by all lerned men.
THE DIVINE. As
to the fyrste, tho some call it so, I se no
reason why they shulde saye so: excepte
they wolde say, that nothing is taken for
truthe in this worlde. For I do esteme
that there be fewe articles of our faythe,
the whiche be approued by mo autentike

B 3

authorities, mo prouable ye inuincible
reasons, by moo laudable customes
and vsages: than this cause is on the kinges
syde. And syns it is so, me thynketh
hit is nat disputable as a doubte
in lawe. As to the seconde I feare me
that lacke of executynge in dede of that
whiche we professe by mouth, is a great
lacke there vnto. For our lyues and religyon
be many tymes farre a sondre, I
praye our lorde amende hit, whanne it
shall be his pleasure. But as to the
fyrste, bycause I thynke hit nat disputable,
I shall declare you somme reasons
whiche do perswade me to thynke
so.
THE LAVYER. Mary I pray
you lette vs here mo. For one I haue
herde all redy, whiche me thynketh very
vehement. If the remenant folowe, I
shall for my parte, be meruailously satisfyed.
THE DIVINE. Fyrst it is to
vnderstande, that accordynge to the sayenge
of the prophet Dauyd. The worde
of our lorde god is mooste sure and euer
abydeth. Syns that so is infallible, hit
must nedes folowe, that it whiche he
vtterly forbyddeth in the negatiue, may

no wyse be attempted. Thanne in this
case, that is to saye. A man owght nat
to mary hys brothers wyfe: It is in the
Negatyue forbodden, in the Leuityke
bothe .xviij. and .xx. chapitres. And
therfore in no wyse hit is to be attempted,
specially wyth vs that be chrysten
people.
THE LAVYERE. I
thynke this hardde to be assoyled: neuerthelesse
the lawe Deuteronomyke semeth
to assoyle the same.
THE DIVINE.
Nay surely, if hit be well vnderstande.
For in the begynnynge that
lawe semeth to propoune and lymytte
certayne poyntes and circumstaunces,
without the whiche that lawe ware no
lawe: as playnely by the texte hit selfe
hit dothe manifestly appere. That is to
saye, fyrst as whanne they dwelled together:
the seconde, whanne he dyed with
out yssue: the thyrde, to suscytate the
brothers sede: the .iiij. that his fyrste
sonne shulde be called by his brothers
name: the fyfte cause and grounde of
that lawe was that the name within the
Tryebe shulde not be forgotten nor abrogate
in Israel: mooste specially the

B 4

trybe of Iudas, wherof it was prophecyed
that our lorde shulde come of. Neuerthelesse
to the intent that ye myghte
well perceyue that this lawe was trulyer
to be obserued in the mysticall sense, than
in the litterall, and that moste specially
nowe by vs christen men: the smalnes of
the payne whiche foloweth it, declareth
it full well, as by the texte folowyng you
may well perceyue. And yet it is left also
to the arbitrement of him that succedeth
to take or refuse her at his pleasure and
will: sufferynge a ryght small and easye
punisshement, as tofore: whiche is lymitte
in the aforesayd chapitre. And to
shewe that it shuld nat be but in the misticall
sense obserued by vs christen men: &
nat litterally, saynt Austen sayeth thus:
Euerye precher of the worde of god is
bounde so to laboure in the gospell, that
he styre vp sede to his brother departed,
that is to Christ, which dyed for vs: and
the sede so suscytate must haue the name
of him depted, that is of Christ: Whervpon
we be called Christians. So therfore
we plainly be nat bou~de to kepe and
fulfyll this lawe carnally as by bodely

generation after the aforesayde signification
and takynge of hit: but spiritually
in a truthe fulfylled. Holy ysidoure in
the selfe same maner as dothe saynt Augustyne.
Saynte Ambrose also sayeth
that the sentence hereof is taken mystically.
And as for any example in whome
this were fulfylled litterally, there hath
ben none shewed, as he affirmeth. Nowe
me thinketh therfore (tho we make the
moste we can of it) this lawe of Deuteronomy
was but a speciall lawe, gyuen
onely to the Iues: As ye may well perceyue
by the aforesayd circumstaunces in
the texte it selfe, seruynge onely for those
expressed intentes: whyche emonge vs
christen men nother hathe nor many be in
any wise obserued, as taken of that lawe:
but be clerely abrogate anulled and in
no wyse to be used. For who nowe a
dayes thinketh him selfe bounde, to suscytate
his brothers sede: or to haue his
sonne called by his brothers name? Or
who thinketh him selfe bounden nowe to
the groundsell and very foundation of
this lawe of Deuteronomy, whiche is
here in this chapitre? As to contynewe

B 5

the inherytaunces, and to supporte the
names of the trybes in Israell onely?
And that this is the full intente and
grounde of this lawe: hit may be gathered
very well by the very texte of
the same lawe: where it sayeth. Whan
brotherne dwelleth together, and one of
them dyeth without yssue or chylderne.
Whiche maketh a playne argumente
and sure profe, that excepte he dyed
withoute yssue, his wyfe shulde in no
wyse mary the other. Thanne to haue
issue for suscitation of sede and continuaunce
of the brothers name in Israell
(as it well appereth) is the cause of this
lawe. Whiche also maketh it appere euidently,
that this lawe is merely ceremoniall,
as that is institute for certeyne people
onely, for certeyne place and certeyn
tyme. For I am sure no man wyll say,
that we oughte to mary for that entente
nowe a dayes. These thinges be so euident
and manifest, that me thinketh with
out a man will nat see, he must nedes perceyue
that this lawe of Deuteronomye
wherof we speke nowe, was onely made
for the Iewes: and that we christen men

be clerely out of the seruitute and bondage
of the obseruaunce of the ceremonyes
of that lawe: excepte that he wyll
haue Christe looked fore to comme agayne,
and will haue vs christen men to
playe the very Iewes. Besyde these
profes vpon the very texte, the mooste
parte of the auncient authors also do declare
this lawe of the Deuteronomye to
be abolytte. And that except bothe circumstaunces
in euery parte and also the
grounde ware obserued: it coulde neuer
haue serued. For they be so mixed together
in precepte, that the one can nat
well stande without the other, and duely
be kepte as hit oughte to be. Wherfore
this Deuteronomyke lawe taketh nothynge
awaye my farmare argumente,
nor yet assoyleth any parte thereof.
THE LAVYERE. By the feythe
I owe to god, you speke felly.
THE
DIVINE. Nay, I coulde speake
moche more yet in declarynge of that
lawe, ware hit nat that I promysed you
to shewe you the reasonnes why that
this mattere is nat disputable.
THE
LAVIERE. I praye you, syns we be

entred into this matter, lette vs haue
more of it: to the intent we may trye our
owne conseyence the better in it.
THE
DIVINE. Syns you nedes wyll haue
me coughe out all, I will tell you more of
my mynde. The deuteronomye lawe in
this case coulde ylle quadrat or agree
with the Leuiticall, except the intent and
circumstaunces therof be well considered
as tofore. And also that this terme brother
in that place be wel vnderstande and
co~sydered.
THE LAVYERE. Why,
I pray you, is there more mistery of that
worde in the deuteronomye, than in the
Leuityke?
THE DIVINE. Ye forsoth,
for in the leuitike it can nor may be taken
for other than for the very brother, the
texte beynge iudge it selfe. But by the
deuteronomyke, as many taketh it: is
ment the nexte of the bloode after the degrees
prohibite, tho he be but kynseman.
And so it might well stande with the Leuiticall
emongest the Iewes. The whiche
interpretation is well approued also
by the playne history of Ruth. But these
thinges be so hylye entreted in many other
workes and treties, that it were but

a losse of tyme to commune any more of
it. Wherfore I mynde nowe to returne
to my formare purpose, & to declare you
the reste of my reasons.
THE LAVYERE.
These in dede haue ben more
entreated on, than the matter which you
haue propouned. Wherfore syns it is
your pleasure, I pray you go forth withall.
Yet I ensure you I haue nat harde so
profou~dely that other matter declared in
my life, for so shorte and a briefe declaration.
THE DIVINE. I am glad tho
without my deserte, that this my declaration
pleaseth you so well. And nowe I
will go forth with the rest of my mynde.
Firste I esteme the worde of our lorde
god aboue all thynges: that nother deceyueth
nor yet is deceyued: which saith
that no man shall take in maryage the
wyfe of his brother. And secondely I
note, that he in the same chapitre commaundeth
this nat onely to the Iewes,
but as well to al maner of people: saieng
these wordes. You shall do none of these
abhominations: nother you that be here
borne dwellers of this countrey, nother
any straungere, what so euer he be, that

commeth emonge you. Euery man that
doeth any one of these abhominations,
shall perysshe fro the middes of his people.
By these wordes it may well appere
that god dothe nat prohibite these offences
only to the Iewes, but also to al maner
of people. For he sayeth, euery man
who so euer he be that doth any of these
abhominations, shall perysshe. If god
hym selfe had not determyned this lawe
to be morall, he wolde neuer haue commanded
hit to all maner of people. For
fewe places there be (as I thynke) in
scripture (I may wel say) none, whiche
be generally prohibite: that be nat also
moral. And it is moreouer to be thought,
that god wold nat so generally haue forbidden
hit so extremely prohibite hit, so
horribly to haue detested it by his owne
wordes: callynge it in some place offence
of his precept, in some contamination, in
some place a greuous faute, an vngoodly
and vnlauful thyng, in some place abhomination,
in some execration: excepte
these were morall, and excepte hit were
also his very wyll that folke shulde generally
forbere and detest them. These wordes

(as semeth me) be so ferefull, so terrible,
and of christen people so to be pondered,
that the wayght and greuousnes of
them, can scant without great grace be
condingly imprinted or impressed in our
hartes. whefore me thynketh we ought
all with meke spirites to calle for grace,
and to endeuour our selfe by all wayes
to atteyn the same: to the intent it might
the more habundantly flowe in vs & not
obstinatly or carnally to withstande hit,
whan many tymes hit is offered vs. For
hit is a great faute and a great lacke of
grace, whan men hath truthe offered to
them: and they wylfully to withstande
the same.
THE LAVYERE. In
good faythe I neuer marked this, nor
yet vnderstode so parfitely in my lyfe.
For surely hit is meruaylously to be noted,
and yet with more reuerence to be
obserued: in so moche that nowe me
thynketh I perceyue a verye shamefastnes,
to entre into any suche acte: whiche
except the acte were vnlaufull, neded nothyng.
THE DIVINE. Nowe ye begynne
to fele some what and to fynde the
truth. For scripture in the same chaptre

confirmeth your sayenge, alleginge these
wordes.There is shame in discouering
the vnclennesse of thy brothers wyfe.
Thou shalt nat discouer it. For it is the
vnclennesse of thy very brother. Hereby
we may well perceyue that there is a vilenesse,
a contraryetie to vertue herein.
For els we neded nat to be a shamed of
it. And I do thinke verely that who so
euer wolde maintayne the other parte,
can nat denye but that it is agaynste honestie,
whiche is very vertue: but that it
is of it selfe very vnclennesse: Hit is (as
I haue rehersed here by goddes owne
wordes) a sore faute. It is contaminacion,
abhominacion, execracion. Wherfore
I meruayle that christen men do nat
tremble to here it, and moche more feare
nat wittingly to do it, or auisedly to continue
in hit. For surely there can be nothinge
of the spirite of god: that can induce
man to it. If for carnall affections
& worldly policies men shulde persuade
it, howe moche that ware to be detested
by a man of pure and syncere conscience:
I reporte me to any man that is indued
with a perfight and playne garment of

truthe. That for any welthe of this
worlde wolde breake or seeke colours to
breake so hye a precepte of the maker
of all worldes. Wherfore these whiche
we haue afore rehersed, beynge so euidently
declared by his owne mouthe, as
the texte hit selfe dothe affirme hit, whan
hit sayeth, I am your verye lorde, the
whiche commandeth you this: me thinketh
that we christen folke ought to iuge
this cause nat disputable, but all redye
iudged by the Iudge of all iudges. And
so manfullye to withstande in goddes
quarelle the maynteyners and supporters
of the contrary: Seynge that oure
mayster so extremely prohybyteth and
with suche abhomination detesteth hit.
Other thynges there be also, whiche
moueth me meruaylously, to thynke
that this is nat disputable. And those
be these.
Fyrste the auncient authors, the whiche
wryteth of hit. Wherin they in detestynge
hit do shewe manifestly theyr
opinion and playnely gyue theyr iudgement
in it. For if it were good or hereafter
myght be good: they being so hyghly

C

lerned & so hooly, wolde neuer so greatly
abhorred hit. Secondly the counsels for
the most parte (whiche speaketh of hit)
dothe vtterly dampne hit. Specially (as
semeth me nowe) Constance counsell, in
disapprouyng the opinions of Wycliffe.
For that cou~sell saieth, that who so euer
be of that opinion that this prohibition
leuiticall, Let no man mary or otherwise
take and vse his brothers wyfe, whith other
there: be only prohibitions made by
man and nat by god, & holdeth the same:
they incontinently to be estemed and taken
as very Paynemes and mere heretikes
by the churche. Farthermore that
none, what so euer he be, shall dare other
to preche, to teche, to hold, or in any wise
alledge any of Wiclyffes articles: other
of the .xlv. fyrst condempned, or of the
other .CC.lx. articles: of the whiche this
same afore rehersed was one. Wherfore
it may euidently appere nowe, that this
matter is nat disputable, but all redye
iudged and concluded: syn hit is determyned,
that he shall be taken for a very
heretyke that holdeth or vpholdyng disputeth
the contrary. The thirde is, that

the hoole consente of all the indifferente
vniuersities of christendome doth plainly
determyne and consent, that this prohibition
Leuiticall is nat onely a thynge
prohibite by the lawes of god & nature:
but also that it is a square and very rule,
by the whiche christen men oughte to be
ordred & lyue by. Syn they take it thus,
that is to say: that this is a precepte and
a direction, by whiche we christen menne
ought to lyue by, and the lawe Deuteronomyke
a thinge ceremoniall whiche is
abolytte: I meruayle that folke be nat a
shamed to calle this matter disputable
or to holde agaynst hit. Moche more I
wondre what grou~de they haue, or wold
fordge the co~trary of this matter vpon:
seing that first it is (as me thinketh) all redy
iudged by goddes owne words~, by generall
counsels, by the hole consente of al
indifferent vniuersities of christendome,
ye and by a great noumbre of other lerned
men: whose scales and handes be redy
to be shewed. It is also emonge vs
christen men imprinted in our hartes in
maner (as who wolde say) from one to a
nother, fro the father to sonne, to deteste

C 2

hit. And doutlesse emonge good folke it
hath bene and is in manere so abhorred,
that scarsely they can finde in their hartes
to here speake of hit. So than that I
take it an hoole acceptation of the churche
of christendome, syn the beginning of
the fayth. Wherfore any more to doubte
of hit, or to calle hit disputable, and nat
to repute hit as alredy iudged: I see no
grounde why, and thinke it dampnable.
Alas, me thynketh that lerned men holdinge
agaynste this opinion, tho they
seme to be of the churche: they be not in
dede. For they holde an opinion contrarye
to the opinion accepted by the hole
churche. Wherfore these words of scripture
maye well be layed ageynste them,
where Christe sayeth. Who so that is
nat on my syde, is on the syde agaynste
me. So that by these wordes verified in
them, hit well appereth that they be not
of Christes churche. Farthermore I am
sure that some of them wyll saye there
be dyuers cases heresies: whiche I dare
boldly say haue not suche grounde and
fundation in truthe: nother of scripture,
nor of good authours, ne yet of generall

counsels, nother haue benne accepted
by the due ordre, whiche commeth
from one to an other, as this hathe:
wyllynge the lay fee to beleue them in
these matters, and yet wyll nat they
gyue place them selfe to this mattere:
so hyghly proued and by so many wayes
determyned. Who can beleue them
in their perswasions: whanne they beleue
nat nor gyue place to the truthe?
Nat callynge truthe that, whiche fantasye
iudgeth truthe: but that, whyche
is approued truthe. Therfore me
thynketh they sclaundre fore the churche,
or els moche them selfes. As who
wolde saye there were no truthe therein:
whanne they so sheweth them selfes
of contrarye opinions. For if there be
a truthe (as good men thynke that there
is) it oughte vniuersally to be taken, to
be preched and taught for a truthe. For
all doctrine inspired by god, is good and
holsome to be taughte, as sayeth saynte
Poule) and nat by sinystre affectyons
to be hydde hyndred and detracted,
lyke as therein some do. Wherfore to
the entente to reduce them to one flocke,

C 3

to a concorde and to one assent: I thinke
it were necessary that the prince and his
people shulde nat gyue credence to them
in those thynges, whiche they on so moche
lesse grounde so desire and require to
haue kepte and obserued: vntylle they
gyue place to this, and suche other: as
scripture doeth plainly declare and determyne,
with lyke assent of generall councels,
and of auncient sayntes and doctours.
And I thynke, so that if they
myght haue the one which they be affectionate
to, graunted them: they wolde
soone gyue place to the other. And so
myght there be made one flocke and one
sheparde of hit, one heed and gyde and
a sorte vnder him of one mynde and concorde.
The whiche, as for my parte, I
praye god sende vs shortely.
THE LAVYERE.
These be wondrefulle
thynges to here, and oughte moche to
moue the hartes of all trewe subiectes:
and that specially sin they concerne their
kynges soule helth, his welth and there
realme also. Alas, is hit nat great pitie,
the prince hauing so manifest and playne
groundes for hym, he beynge also so louing

to vs as he is, so glad & so harty to
take paynes for this his co~mune welth:
that we, whiche that be his subiectes,
shuld be to hym so vnnatural, that other
for other considerations worldly, or for
reportes of sinistre persons, shulde lette
to do our very duetie to him? Ye and leauynge
the playne truth, rather to beleue
maligners agaynst his cause, whiche soweth
more diuision than obedience: & nat
accordinge to our very dueties to stycke
fastly and surely vnto hym, whiche is in
the very ryght. Tho parauenture he say
lytell, yet may hit fortune that he marketh
all. Wherfore bothe duetie and reuerence
with feare, is to be had to hym,
whiche is so louynge and harty to vs: to
the intent that these beyng ioyned bothe
on his parte and oures: we may withstande
the malignitie of all backebyters
and sclanderers: and vtterly in our hartes
conceyue, that it is farre from our
duetie of allegiaunce to beleue vntrue reportes
and false malignations agaynste
our souerayne. And herein we ought to
emende our fautes, and from hensforthe
nat to suffre any suche reportes: but man

C 4

fully to withsta~de, who so euer wolde vse
them selfe to the contrari, other in worde
or dede. And in this doynge, I thynke
there shuld be roted the greattest vnion
betwene the heed and bodye that euer
was sene or harde of. Which shulde fulfyll
and perfyght that wyse sayenge of
Salust. Where is peace and concorde,
smalle thynges encreasyth and commeth
to moche: by debate and discorde where
is moste, hit soone fayleth and flydeth awaye.
Wherfore I praye god sende vs
his lyght of grace, specially to kepe this
betwene our heed and vs.
THE DIVINE.
By my trouth, I thynke there
can nat be a better exhortation, thanne
you haue here giuen vs all. For so longe
as no membre halteth or is in payne: the
hele body must nedes be the healer. But
nowe that hytherto we agree so well, I
muste be as homely with you, as you
haue bene with me: prayenge you to
assoyle me certeyne questions of lawe:
lyke as I haue assoyled you in diuinitie.
THE LAVYERE. I ware to blame
els. But I muste praye you fyrste to assoyle
me one question more, whiche I

wolde fayne knowe.
THE DIVINE.
What is that I praye you?
THE
LAVYERE. Of the power of the pope,
in dispensation with the lawe diuine.
THE DIVINE. Of that to entrete at
length were nowe to shorte a tyme. And
hit hath also bene wrytten of by so many
authors, that hit ware harde for me to
say any thynge therin, the whiche hath
nat ben sayd. But yet for your pleasure
I wyll assaye somme thynge, as hit shall
occurre to my mynde. Yet one thynge I
muste knowe youre wyll in, ere that I
procede any farther.
THE LAVYERE.
What is that I beseche you?
THE DIVINE. Mary syre, this
is hit, whether you wyll that I shulde
shewe you whatte the olde auncient doctours
do saye, or what the modernes,
whiche somewhat flattereth the popes
authoritie, sayeth: other elles declare
you myne opinion, taken out of bothe,
whiche I truste shall nat be farre frome
truthe?
THE LAVYERE. The
auncient doctours and many also of the
modernes opinion hathe benne declared
herin in many other bokes and warkes:

C 5

of whiche I haue sene some bothe of laten
and englysshe. But is there, saye you,
difference emongest other of their opinions?
THE DIVYNE. Ye forsothe,
for some of the modernes smake to moche
of your lawe, in wrestyng of scripture
for auauncement of dignitie: whiche the
olde fathers do clene forbydde and contempne:
and lykewyse also dyuerse other
modernes. Wherby you may well perceiue
that there is some alteration emong
them.
THE LAVYERE. That is
true. But whiche, thynke you, do beste?
THE DIVINE. They that do leste attribute,
arrogancy rule and dominyon to
the spiritualitie. For sure it will be at
length els their vttre confusion: hit is so
abhominably at this day abused and presumed
on. But nowe to my matter. The
scripture sayeth these wordes, why do
you breake or transgresse the commandement
of god for your owne tradicions?
And also these wordes. The prophetical
and holy scripture is not of mans interpretacion.
With this moreouer, scripture
must nedes stande vnlosed. All these
auncient authours also, whiche here foloweth

do say, accordyngly to holy scripture
that the pope can nat dispence with
other the lawe of god or nature. Saynt
Augusten, besydes other places, in the
epistole, whiche he wryteth Ad glorium
Eleusinum, sheweth that he is vnder the general
counsell. Wherfore moch the more
he must nedes be vnder the lawe of god.
Saynt Ambrose in his boke de Paradiso
affirmeth the same. Lykewise saynt Bernarde
bothe in his epistle Ad Adam monachum,
and in his boke de dispensatione et præceptis.
Holy popes also that were in the
olde tyme, do confesse the same: As Fabianus
papa in his epistle Ad orientales. Mercellinus
papa in his epistole Ad orientales. Also
Vrbanus papa in .25.q.i. Sunt quidam. Zozimus
papa in de fratutis gentiu~. Where he sayeth
that agaynst the statutes and decrees of
fathers, the fee of Rome can nother make
ne chaunge nothyng. Moche lesse ayenst
the scriptures and statutes of god. Damasus
papa ad Aurelium Archiepiscopu~. Innocentius
papa in ca. litteras. Besyde these, other
auncient authors confirme the same: as
Basilius magnus in regula monachorum. Beda
in expositione epistole Petri. Isidorus ca. Si is

27

qui preest. With these agreeth as in one
also these lattre diuines, Alexandre de Halys,
Scotus, Occham, Richardus de media Villa,
Albertus, Iacobus de Lauzanna, Altistiodorensis,
Franciscus de Maronis, Gerson, Durandus,
Gabriel Biel, Heriteus, Bernardus de Trilla,
Antoninus Florentinus, Ioan. Lupus, and
many mo: whiche do playnely affirme,
that no man canne proue that the pope
may dispense with other the lawe of nature,
or the lawe of god. Wherfore hit
foloweth well, that this beynge the lawe
of god (as hit hath bene bothe well and
playnely afore declared and proued) as
me thynketh hit is euident, hit is easy
bothe to perceyue and beleue: that syn
it is thus grounded on the very lawe of
god, hit is also indispensable. Nowe
than more ouer seynge that this case is
also determyned as well by auncient authors
as by generall counsels, ye and
holy popes owne confessions: and seynge
also that all these doth agre both modernes
& other, with the full consente of the
moste parte of all the Vniuersites & lerned
men at this houre within christendome,
that this case is indispe~sable: me

thinketh gretly that we ought (this matter
being so euidently opened & declared)
clerely & holy to beleue this: and as true
subiectes to stycke with our souerayne &
prince, in this his iust doinge & laudable
act. For (as me semeth) it is a sinful & an
vnnatural demeynour of subiectes, what
sinistre laboure so euer be made to the
co~trary, to mysdeme theyr prince: that in
so wayghtie a cause he wolde be seducyd,
and vse affections. Whiche hytherto
raynyng the .xxiij. yere ouer vs and more
hath shewed hym selfe in all his doinges
but iust indifferent & most vpryght. And
I, for my parte, do rather arrecte this
blindnes of the people, more to ignoranci
with a litle to moche lightnes in credence
to light folke, the whiche goeth about to
seduce them: than to any other acte of
vnnaturall dutie. For I thynke verely
that there was neuer prince amonge vs,
that euer was better beloued, nor that
hath deserued more to be. Wherfore
nowe vsynge the sayinge of seynt Poule,
I do exhort you in our lord god, that you
his subiectis do exonerat your selfes of al
maner of groun~des or occasio~s that might

brede any vnkyndnes in his hart toward
you. And also his maiestie (you with al
due reuerence so doynge) to continue his
well approued zeale and feruent loue, alwayes
hytherto shewed emonge you, to
the intent aforesayd: whiche is that we
may haue, accordinge to Christes owne
wordes, one flocke and one heed.
THE
LAVYERE. On my faythe you haue
satisfyed me bothe with great and many
authorities, and (as me thinketh) also
with inuincible reasons. I pray god myn
answeres to your questions, may satisfie
you as well and with as moche truthe:
as youres hathe done me.