The thyrde dialoge

That the soule doth suffer and noth the body / and that
by the iustyce of god there muste be a purgatory /
because that somtyme man dyeth wythout
makynge full satysfaccyon. Cap. j.

COmyngo. As touchynge the meuelous existens of
god / and the immortalyte of mannes soule / thou hast
made to me so many merueylous reasons / yt I muste
nedys affyrme bothe thy pryncyples / that is to saye /
that there is one god which gouerneth all conserueth
all / and regardeth all / and also that the soule of man
is unmortall and shall neuer dye / but that yt shall receyue
ioy or sorow in a nother world after yt it is separate
from this corruptyble body. But yet me thynketh thou hast made a
great dygressyon from the mater that we fyrst began / whych was yt there
is a purgatorye / where the soule of man after this mortall lyfe shalbe punysshed
for suche offences done here in yerth / wherfore he made not here
full satysfaccion / and so to be puryfyed before that yt come to the place of
ioy.
Gynge. Nay I haue made not dygressyon from the matter / but
I haue made a preparacyon to the mater / for the reasons whyche I haue
shewed to the here before / and the conclusyons that I haue proued touchyng
the meruelous exystens of god / & yt immortalyte of mannes soule /
be but the antecedens of the argumentes / whyche I purpose to make in
prouyng that there is a purgatory.
Comyngo. Than I praye the go
breuely to the mater and let vs spende no tyme in vayne / but yet fyrst I
pray the tell me one thynge / whether is it the soule of man alone that suffereth
the payne and sorowe / or whether is it the body of man alone that
suffereth payne and sorowe / or bothe to geder.
Gyngemyn. It is the
soule that suffereth alway payne & sorowe and not the bodye / for there is
nothyng that can suffer payne or pleasure but that thyng / whiche at ye lest
hath sensytyue soule and lyfe / for a stone / a tre / nor other thynge / whyche
haue no sensytyue lyfe can suffer nother payne nor pleasure / but yet some
tyme that soule doth suffer payne beynge wyth the body / as when the body
is perturbed and let from the naturall cours of his conseruacyon / as
when ye body is to mych hote or to myche cold / or to mych drye / or to mych
moyst / or hath other impedyment which letteth the naturall cours of his
conseruacyon / than that soule suffereth payne beynge wyth the bodye.
Comyn. That standeth as me semeth wyth good reason / therfore I
pray the procede to the mater.
Gynge. wyth ryght good wyll / & therfore
I pray the now take hede. Thou reme~brest well that I haue prouyd
vnto the in our second dyaloge and dysputacyon / that god is of hym self

ryghteous and iust / and executyth euermore good and indyffere~t iustyce
to euery one of his creatures / and doth rewarde and punysh euery creature
accordynge to his defect. And that man is the only creature / whom
he hath created here lyuynge vpon yerth / to do hym honour and seruyce /
and that no nother creature here in erth doth seruyce and honour to god
but only man / as I haue prouyd vnto the here before in our seconde dyaloge
and dysputacyon. And because that many a man here in yerth doth
not honour nor serue god as he ought to do / but is neglygent therin and
breketh the commaundementes of god / & is dysobedyent vnto god / and
is not therfore suffycie~tly punysshed in this worlde but dyeth before such
punyshment or satisfaccion here vpon yerth by hym made / it must nedes
therfore folowe that god of hys ryghteousnes must cause that man to be
purged & puryfyed in a nother place to make satysfaccyon for those offences /
before that he shalbe able to perceyue the eternall ioy / or to be partyner
of the goodnes of god / for the whych he was created and made. And
so by the iustyce of god there must nedys be a purgatorye.

An obieccyon / because repentaunce is the onely thynge /
that clerely wassheth & puttyth a way all synne done by
man / and that god of his iustyce muste than dyscharge
hym therof / therefore it nedeth tha~ no
nother purgatory. Caput ii.

COmyngo. That reason me thynketh taketh but small holde / for
thou knowest well and all clarkes here to agre / yt repentau~ce is the
very only thynge that wasshyth & puttyth clerely away all synne done by
man agayns god: and that repentaunce is onely that thynge that god
wold haue to be made and done for the satysfaccio~ of the synne / for which
repentaunce so made and hadde / god of his mercyfull goodnes doth dyscharge
acquyte and pardon the man for that synne and offence so done /
all though that man neuer toke nor suffred any other penaunce or payne
therfore here vpon yerthe / as by example yf that I owe to the an C.li. of
trew det / and yf yt I humbly desyre the to forgyue me my det / tha~ yf thou
of thy gentylnes onely for that loue that thou knoweth that I bere vnto
the wylt dyscharge and pardon to me that det / and make a clere relese vnto
me therof. I am tha~ clerely dyscharged of that det nor am neuer bou~d
by order of no lawe nor iustyce to make any other payme~t or satysfaccyo~
to the therfore. So lykewyse whe~ god of his goodnes forgyueth me myn
offence and synne for the repentaunce that I haue taken therfore / I am
tha~ clerely releasyd and dyscharged of that offence and synne / and ought
neuer to haue other punyshme~t or to make other satysfaccyon therfore /
and so than it shall not stande wyth any co~uenyent reason / yt there shuld
be any purgatory / or place of punishme~t for that offence and synne which
is pardoned and released / but that after such pardo~ and release made by

god to me for myne offence and synne / that god of his goodnesse shulde
rewarde me / and so to make me partyner of the eternall ioy in heuen / for
the whyche I was create & made. And on the other syde yf I were neuer
repentaunt for my offence / but dyed unpenytent / than god of his iustyce
muste gyue me eternall punyshment therfore in hell / and therefore to put
any purgarye / yt shulde seme by the ryghteousnes of god to be but in
vayne.

The solucyon yf god shuld be compelled to forgyue
the synne immedyatly after repe~taunce / he shuld
be restreyned of his lyberte / and from the
execucyon of his iustyce.

Caput. iii.

Gyngemyn. Thy answere methynketh is not suffycyent / for in the
case whych thou hast put / yf thou desyre my forgyuenes of thy .C.li.
yet yt it is at my lyberte and of my gentylnes / whether I wyll forgyue
the ye hole .C.li. or elles parte therof. And yf I thynke in my mynde
that the forgyuenes of the hole. C.li. is to great a rewarde to the for any
loue or kyndnes that thou haste shewed vnto me / or ellys yf I thynke
that thy loue and kyndnes shewed to me is a suffycyent recompence for
that C.li. but yet peraduenture I thynke that it is not a suffycyent satysfaccyon
and recompence for the losse of tyme and damages / hurte and
hynderaunce that I haue had for the none payment of the C.li. whyche
peraduenture shuld haue ben payd to me longe tyme before: than yf I of
my gentilnes do forgyue the the hole C.li. and yet for that gentylnes yt I
shewe to the (because it is at my lyberte / whether I wyll forgyue the or
no) I wyll that thou shuld do me some other seruyce / and take som payn
or laboure for me by the space of two or thre daees. Than thou canst not
say / but than I do to the no iniury / but shew to the gentylnes and great
mercy. So lyke wyse whan thou takest repentaunce and askest mercy of
god for thy synne: no man ought to be so folysh to thynke that god shuld
be restrayned and co~pelled / but that he is at his lyberte alwaye to execute
his iustyce or mercy at his pleasure / and that euermore it is at hys liberte
whether he wyll forgyue or no. For yf god shulde be compelled to do the
one or the other / than god shuld haue no noble beynge / but a beynge and
a lyfe in a maner in boundage and seruytude. But god must nedys haue
the most noblest lyfe and most pleasaunt lyfe as I haue proued before to
the in our seconde dyaloge / than god muste euermore be at his lyberte to
execute hys iustice or mercye at his pleasure. And than yf that god vpo~ the
repentau~ce wyll forgyue the / & yet yf he thynke that yt repentaunce which
thou hast taken for thy synne / is not suffycyent satysfaccyon therfore and
than yf thou dye before any other satysfaccyon made / tha~ god of necessite
yf he wyl execute his iustice / must neds~ cause ye to be punished in a nother

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place / to make a full satysfaccyon for thyne offence / but yet in that case
yf he wyll execute hys mercy / he may than at hys pleasure forgyue the all
thy hole offence and synne / wythout any other satysfaccyon to be suffred
or done by the therfore. But yet yf god in that case shuld thynke that thy
repentaunce here in yerth were no full satisfaccyon for thy synne / than yf
god shuld be so restrayned / yt he shulde not ordeyne a place of purgacyon
for thy soule / where it shuld for a season remayne and haue punyshment
to make a full satysfaccyon for thyn offence and synne: than thou woldest
exclude god both from his lyberte and from the execucyon of his iustyce.
Therfore yt foloweth by all conuenyent reason / that there must nedys
be a purgatory / where me~nes soule shalbe purged / or ellis they that shuld
holde that opynyo~ that there is no suche purgatory / shulde offer to god a
great wronge / and shulde exclude goddys power / and put hym bothe fro~
hys lyberte and execucyon of hys iustyce.

An obieccyon because man is ordeyned to haue an infynyte
beynge / therfore after his deth he must haue
infynyte ioy or infynyte payne / and so no
payne in purgatory which hath an
ende. Caput. iiii.

COmyngo. Though one shuld holde that opynyon that there is
no purgatory / yet he shulde therby nother mynysh ye power of god
nother restrayne his lyberte / nother exclude the iustice of god / for man is
made and ordeyned by god to haue a beynge infynyte / and that there is
but two thynges ordeyned for mannes soule / which is ioy or sorow. And
syth the soule of man after that it is separate from this corruptyble body
must nedys haue an infynyte beynge / as thou hast proued in thy seconde
dyaloge / which must be than infynyte sorowe or infynyte ioy / and tha~ as
sone as it is separate from the corruptyble body / god must than of his iustyce
iudge that soule other to the place where is infynyte ioy / or to that
place where is infinyte sorow / accordynge as it hath deserued. So tha~ yt
shulde seme in vayne to put any purgatory / where the soule shulde haue
any sorowe yt shuld haue an ende / or to put any other place of ioye / where
the soule shuld haue ioy / whyche ioy shulde haue an ende.

The solucyon as there be degrees in synne / as some
synne is more and some lesse: so there be degrees
in repentau~ce / as some may be more and some
lesse: and also degrees of pardon & forgyuenes /
therfore ma~ for lak of sufficie~t
repentaunce muste be purged.

Caput. v.

Gyngemyn. To satysfye thy mynde in that poynt thou must consyder
that god of his goodnes hathe create the worlde and all thynge
therin conteyned / in a conuenyent order of degree. And thus / of all
the kynde of thynges that euer god made / some be more and some lesse /
some be small and some smaller. As of corporall thynges some be harde /
some more harde / and some be softe and some be more softe / some be hote
& some be more hote / and some be colde and some be more cold / lyke wyse
of thynges incorporall some be great and some be greater. As of vertue /
some is good and some better and of vyce some is euyll & some is worse
how sayst thou thynkest not thou that this pryncyple / is reasonable and
trew.
Comyngo. I thynke yt is trewe that thou sayst.
Gyngemyn.
Than thus is not some syn & offence that a man co~mytteth somtyme
more and somtyme lesse.
Comyn. I thynke so.
Gyn. And doth not
euery offence deserue punyshment.
Comyn. Yes.
Gyng. Than is
there no degrees in punyshment / as well as there is degrees in synne &
offence / so that some punyshment / is more and some is lesse / and is there
not also degrees in repentaunce / and some repentaunce is great & some
greater: and also degrees in forgyuenes & pardone / as some forgyuenes
and pardone great and some greater.
Comyn. What than.
Gynge.
Tha~ ought not euery offence & synne be punysshed by ye iustyce of god
in order and degree accordyng as it is / so yt yf ye offence & synne be great /
it ought to haue a great punyshment: and yf it be small it ought to haue
smal punyshment.
Co. Iuste.
Gyn. Than I say / wha~ that a man
here in yerth hath co~mytted a great synne and offence / and taken repentau~ce
wherby the synne is forgyuen / and yet hath not take~ such sufficient
repentaunce therfore / nor had any suffycyent punyshment / whych shulde
make a full payment and satisfaccyo~ for that synne / and dyeth before any
co~dygne or full satysfaccion made / god must nedys than of his ryghteousnes
ordeyne a place of purgatory / where hys soule shall haue a forther punyshment
to make a condygne and full satysfaccyo~ for that synne / and so
to be purged and puryfyed before yt shall be able & worthy to be admytted
to receyue the eternall ioy in heuen. As by example / yf a man co~myt
a treason agaynste his prynce / wherfore he ought by order of the lawe to
lese his goodes / and to haue imprysonment / and also to be put to dethe
and when he is conyucted there vppon / than because he seeyth he can not
auoyde from the punyshment of the lawe / he is repentaunt and sory for
his offence and prayeth hys prynce of forgyuenes / yet this repentaunce &
sorowe that he taketh for his offence / can neuer be so great / but that yet
this prynce by iustyce may take his good / and inpryson hys body / and after
that put hym to dethe for the sayde offence by order of his lawes / & do
hym iustyce. And so at his pleasure execute ye extremyte of hys law / wythout
doyng any wronge to hym. But yet this prynce may yf he wyl by his
mercy pardon his lyfe / & take hys goodes & impryson his body for a tyme

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and season / or as longe as he wyll at hys pleasure / and accordyng to the
degre and qualyte of the same offence / tyll he haue made a full satysfaccyon
to hys prynce for that treaso~ done to hym / but yet yf yt prynce shuld
punyshe euery offender to thexstremyte of deth wythoute any mercy: it
shuld seme a thynge sownyng to cruelte / and also clerely agaynst ye prerogatyue
of hys mercyfull power and auctoryte. And also yf a prynce in
suche case shulde forgyue euery suche offender for suche a great offence /
whyche hath taken but a small repentaunce and sorowe therfore / it shuld
bothe be an example to all suche offenders / and to gyue the~ and all other
comfort and boldnes to do lyke offences / whyche were a thynge / yt shulde
sown to the subuersyon of his lawe / and derogacion of iustyce. Therfore
yf such a prynce wold be reputed for a dyscret prynce / & a mercyfull prince
he must somtyme forgyue the hole offence / and somtyme execute iustyce
accordyng to hys lawes / and also somtyme pardone parte of the punyshment
condigne for the offence / and gyue but a temporall punyshment for
a tyme and season accordynge to the degre and qualyte of the offence / &
of the repentaunce. And so lyke wyse whan that a man hath commytted
a synne & an offence / and taketh some repentaunce therfore / but not suffycyent /
and than dyeth: tha~ god of hys goodnes by ye order of his iustyce &
mercy / muste somtyme pardone that offence from the eternall deth / and
yet gyue hym some punyshment / which shuld not be to the extremyte / as
to condempne hys soule to eternall sorowe and payne / but to haue some
punyshme~t for a tyme and season to puryfye & to purge the soule of that
offence / accordynge to degree and qualyte of the offence / for as I sayde
before / as there is degrees in repentaunce / as some is more and some is
lesse / so god of his iustyce must use degrees in forgyuenes and in pardon:
so that though he forgyue the eternall payne and sorowe / whych is co~dygne
for the great offence and synne whych the man dyd co~myt: yet it stondeth
wyth the great dyscreat wysdom of god to punysh the soule for that
offence for a season to puryfye and purge it / that yt may be able to be admytted
to come to the eternall ioy / for the which he was made and create
for yf that men co~myttynge dyuers synnes or offences agayns god / in
dyuers orders and degrees / as some more & some lesse / and dyuers of the~
take repentaunce dyuersly / some more / and some lesse / and than yf god
shulde not vse dyuers degrees of forgyuenes and pardon / but punysshe
euery of them eternally therfore / yt shuld sown than to the subuersyon of
hys owne lawe / and derogacyon of hys iustyce / and also agayns the prerogatyfe
yf hys mercyfull power and authoryte. Therfore it must nedys
be agreed by all reason / that there must be a purgatorye / where the soule
of man muste be puryfyed and purged for a season to make full satysfaccyon
for suche offences and synnes / for the whyche the man made not suffycyent
satysfaccyon here in yerth / and toke not suffycyent repentaunce
therfore.

An obieccyon / that because there be degrees in heuen
and hell of ioye and payne / that it is nedeles for
god to putte any purgatorye / for he maye execute
hys full and indyfferent iustyce in
one of those two places.

Caput. vi.

COmyngo. Thou hast made to me a meruelous reaso~ herein / but
yet me thynketh though that god by the meruelous order of his creacion /
hath create euery thyng in order and degrees / as some great
and some greater / so of offences and syn / some is great & some is greater
and of punyshment therfore some to be great / and some greater / of merytoryous
dedes some greate some greater / and of repentaunce some
great and some greater / and of forgyuenes and pardon some great and
some greater: yet that proueth not that by the dyscrete wysedome and
iustyce of god / that there must nedys be a purgatory / for god may by the
order of good iustyce punysh euery offence done by man / in order and accordynge
to hys degrees / and rewarde euery merytoryous acte in order
and degree as they ought to be / some more and some lesse / though there
be no purgatorye but onely heuen and hell / for lyke wyse as thou saydest
ere whyle / as there is orders and degrees of euery thynge here in yerthe /
so I suppose and doute not but there is degrees bothe in heuen and hell /
as some soule in heuen shall haue a great ioy / and some shall haue a greater
ioy / and yet bothe these ioyes to be infynyte / and also in hell some soule
there to haue a great punyshment and some a greater / and yet bothe
these punyshmentes to be infynyte. So that god by his iustyce maye punysh
euery soule in hell / and rewarde euery soule in heuen in conuenyent
order and degree accordynge to theyr desertes: and yet all those punyshmentes
and rewardes to be infynyte / and so euery thynge in hys order
and degre. Therfore it shulde seme nedeles for god than to put or to ordeyne
any purgatory.

The solucyon / that as the appell whych hath a vegetatyue
soule / and as the beest whyche hathe a sensytyue soule /
maye be purged after that they be seueryd from theyre
naturall growyng and lyfe / of such tokens and spottes
whych be a deformyte to them / so the soule intellectyue
muste be purged of those tokens and spottes of synne /
whyche was a deformyte to yt. Caput. vii.

Gyngemyn. That is a very sore obieccyon / that thou hast now put
and aledged. But yet not wythstandynge / yf thou wylte pacyently
here me / I dout not but I shall gyue the a good suffycyent solucyo~

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therto and to satisfye thy mynde therin Therefore I praye the take good
hede to thys that I shall now shewe to the / I trust it is not out of thy remembrau~ce
that I shewed the / but late that there be .iii. kyndys of soules
One is a soule vegetatiue / whiche is in euery plante / tree / grasse / herbe /
and frute. A nother is a soule sensytiue whyche is in euery brute sensuall
best / as well horse shepe and such other as go & crepe vpon the yerth
as in the byrdes that fle in the eyre / and fyshe whyche swym in the water
whych vse and occupy theyre .v. sences / that is to sey / tastyng / smellyng /
heryng / seyng / & touchyng. And the thyrde soule is ye soule intellectiue
whych is i~ man / which is nothi~g elles but ye lyuely vndersta~dyng / wherby
man knowith the good from the euell / dyscussynge the thyng by argumentes
and reasons / for the one parte & for the other / tyll at the laste he
therby fyndith out the truthe / and so therby knowith which is good and
which is euyll.
Comyn. All that I am content to grau~te.
Gyng.
Syth thys thyng is now well by the perceyued / now will I procede to
the solucyon of thyne obieccyon. But fyrste I wyll shewe the an example
of thyngys hauynge soule vegetatiue as an apple whyche hath but soule
vegetatiue yf such an apple growyng in the tree be hurt with som great
stroke / & therby in some parte somwhat rotten & peryshed / & if that apple
immedyatly after be pulled frome the tree / now that apple can neuer lenger
growe: and then yf thou woldeste kepe that same apple to the intent
to serue the at thy table at some grete dyner & feaste that thou woldest afterwarde
make to thy frendys & louers / this appell shall not be able than
to do to the no good seruyce / because the lenger thou kepeste it / it wyll be
wors & worse / and by reason of that stroke it wyll wax more rotten / and
at the laste wax all to nought and not able to be eten: and also if thou lay
that appell amonge other apples / it wyll infecte all thos appels / whyche
lye nygh it / and make them rotten & nought. But yet yf such an appell hauynge
such a stroke growynge vpon the tree / be suffered styll to growe &
not pulled of the tree / such an apple oftentymes wyll naturally preserue and
hele it selfe agayne / and the radycall naturall humour of that appell wyll
increase whyle it is growynge / and expulse those humours whyche were
corrupte by reason of the sayd stroke / and so make that appell a hole and
a sownde appell / able to be kepte to do thy seruyce after at thy table / whe~
thou shalt make thy dyner and feast to thy fre~des and louers. But yet yf
thou take an appell from that tree / whyche is a sownde appell but yet it is
not fully rype / because there remayneth i~ it such a sowre watery humour
which maketh yt not pleasaunt to be eten / yet yf thou laye that appell in
fayre strawe in some howse where the temperate eyer may come to it / tha~
that eyer wyll puryfye & purge that appell frome that sowre humour and
vapour out the tartnes and sowernes of that humour / & so make it melowe
& pleasau~t to be eten. So lyke wyse now I may say of a man whych
hathe soule intellectyue / yf he be infecte or corrupted withe the stroke of

doynge some great mortall synne and offence agayns god / and than the
soule immedyatly pulled & separate fro~ the body by naturall dethe wythout
repe~taunce / tha~ the soule of that man shall neuer be able to be receyued
of god / & do hym seruice in heue~ / because it hath such a mortall wou~d
wherby it is infecte & putryfyed not worthy to be admytted to acco~pany
wyth ye clene pure soules in heue~. And yet yt man whyle his soule was ioynyd
wt ye corruptyble body myght haue take~ repe~tau~ce which myght haue
restored hym agayne to helthe and to vertue. But after the naturall deth
that man can take no such repentaunce / wherby he shuld be helyd of that
mortall synne and offence / than god of his iustice must clerely expulse his
soule from the eternall ioy in heuen / because it is putryfyed & corrupted.
But yet yf a man haue commytted such a great mortall synne & offence
to god / and hath taken repentaunce / wherby that mortall stroke & wou~d
is heled before his deth / & before his soule is separate & pulled fro yt body:
but yet that ma~ is not fully purged therof / or ells~ not clene of other small
offences / nor redy nor rype to do pure & clene seruyce to god in heue~ / but
that there remayneth in hym some tokens & spottes of synne and offence
god of his iustyce may not then condempne his soule to eternall punyshment /
nor immedyatly to receyue that soule to the blysse of heue~ / to ioy &
to co~pany wyth those gloryfyed & pure soules in heuen / tyll those tokens
and spottes of synne be clere wasshed awaye and purged / and he made redy
& rype to do to god pure and clene seruyce in heuen. Therfore than by
conuenyent iustyce of god / there muste nedys be a place of purgacyon /
where his soule must be purged and made clene of those tokens & spottes
of synne / or that it be able to be receyued to the eternal ioy in heuen. And
also a lyke resemblaunce I may make of thynges whych haue soule sensytyue /
as yf thou haue a swyne which is infected with pox or other syknes
or an ox that is infected with any syknes / which swyne or ox yf they shuld
be than slayne / were not good nor holsome for ma~nys mete / but the flesh
putryfyed corrupte / and yet by medycyn and good kepyng that swyne or
oxe may be heled / and than whyle those bestes be lyuynge / nature shall expulse
those infectuos humours / & brynge those bestes agayne to helthe &
make them sownde and theyr flesh good and holsome for mannys mete.
But yet yf those bestes whyche haue ben infecte with such corrupt syknes
haue taken medycyne / and that corrupt syknes therby expelled / & euer in
cresynge to more helth and the flesh holsome ynoughe to be eten for mannys
mete. But yet the flesh is so bare and lene / that it is not pleasaunt to
ete as other flesh is. Or ellys yf such bestys haue taken some dysease by excessyue
colde or hete / & the flesh not putryfyed nor corrupte / but bare and
lene / and therfore not pleasaunt to be eten for mannys mete: yet yf those
bestys be kylled / yet thou mayst make the flesshe of those bestys / though it
be neuer so lene by sethynge or rostynge it wyth butter or fat larde to be
good mannies mete / and pleasau~t to be eten able to serue the at thy dyner

or feast for thy frendes and louers. So in the same maner it is / wha~ that
a man is infecte wyth a great mortall synne which he hath commytted agayns
god. And yf his soule were than separate from his body / yet then
hys soule ought not to be receyued of god in to heuen / nor to do seruyce
there vnto god because it is putryfyed and corrupted with ye foule mortall
synne / but yf that ma~ had taken the medecin of full repe~taunce in his
lyfe / that medecyn wold haue restored hym agayne to his soule helth and
vertue. But yet yf he haue taken some repentaunce for that synne and offence
and not suffycient / & not had suffycyent tyme to make suffycyent satysfaccyon
therfore: yet by the takynge of that medecyn of repentaunce /
that syn is expelled and gon / and the soule of that sekenes and synne is
clerely hole: but yet the toke~s and spottys of that synne whiche is a deformyte
to the soule do styll remanyn in that soule / tyll yt soule haue a tyme
to be wasshed and purged from those toke~s and spottys to make yt pure
and clene of that deformyte.

An obieccyon / that the soule vnpurged maye do some
meane and lowe seruyce to god in heue~ / though it be
not the hyest and best seruyce / so that it nedeth
not to be purged. Caput. viii.

COmyngo. yet me thynketh that proueth not yt of necessyte there
must be a purgatory / to purge & to wasshe away clene those spottes
and tokens whych is but a deformyte to the soule / but co~syderynge that
by that medecyne of repentaunce / that sekenes of the soule is therby put
awaye and expelled / and the soule so made hole agayne / all though that
there be spottes and tokens remaynynge which is but a deformyte to the
soule and no mortall sekenes / those tokens & spottes than nede not to be
wasshed away / but yf they remayne styll yet they do no hurte / but ye
soule
may do good and perfyte seruyce to god in heue~: for all though that god
wyll not put such soules in the hyest and most purest place in heuen because
they be not so pure as other soules be / but somwhat deformed whyche
is but as an eye sore / yet he wyll not clerely expell the~ out of heue~ / but put
them in some other low place in heuen. As by example / yf yt a man which
kepeth an honorable house and vseth to feaste great lordes and estates at
his table / and prepareth fyne dyaper table clothys and napkyns / where
wyth to serue them at his table at his dyners and feasts~ / yf ony of those
table clothes or napke~s be defouled wyth dust fylth or other foule mater
which is not swete / yet yt man will not suffer those clothes to be occupyed
at his table / tyll they be wasshed and made clene / and they fylth so clerely
expelled / that they may be swete and clene & worthy to serue hym at his
table. But yet yf they haue ben so defouled wyth some foule fylth / wherby
they be stayned that though they be wasshed neuer so clene / yet some
spot and token wyll remayne of that staynynge / so that though they be

pure clene and swete inough to do seruyce at his table / yet ye spottes and
tokens of the steynynge whych remayne be than a great deformyte & eye
sore: yet this ma~ yf he be wyse wyll not caste a way those clothes / but wyll
that they shall do hym seruyce in some other place and offyce of his house
as in his buttry or ewry or his cha~ber / where they shal do to him as good
seruyce / as though they were not stayned nor had no such spottes nor tokens
of deformyte to the eye. And lyke resemblance also I may make of
a prynce / whych must retayne in hys house to be hys houshold seruau~tes
such men as he ca~ chuse in hys reame which be clene me~ & hole me~ of body
some to be in hys pryue cha~ber / some in hys hall / and some in hys kychyn
and some in other places of hys house / yf any such seruantes / whych thys
prynce hath chosen to be in hys house / haue had any great syknes wherof
he is by medecyne throughly helyd / and yet there remaynyth some deformite
in his face or other parte of his bodye / as that his skyn of hys face is
awaye and so his face vtterly deformed / or ellis any other member of
his body deformed / and yet the man is clere hole of all syknes and strong
and able to do good seruyce to his prince in diuerse romes and offyces in
his house / all though it be not conuenyent for the honor of thys prynce to
haue thys deformed person to be in hys cha~ber of estate or in hys hall / yet
this person so deformed & beyng hole may serue thys prynce in hys kyche~
there to be his scollyon / or in some other offyce to bere water / wode / or to
clense gutters / or other vyle placs~ in this pri~cis house / & so in this pryncs~
house to haue a ioyfull and mery lyfe / wherewyth he wylbe meruelously
well content / all though he neuer be admitted to do seruyce in his cha~ber
nor hall. So lyke wyse in heuen god hath ordeyned for them that be the
moste pure and clene soules / the most pure and clene places / where they
shall haue moost hyest ioy / and for the other meane soules a meane place
of ioye. And for those soules that haue ben infected wyth some mortall
synne / and heled therof by the medecyne of repentaunce / & yet the spottes
and tokens of that synne do styll appere and remayne in the soule / which
is but as an eye sore or a deformyte to the soule / yet because that mortall
sekenes by the medecyn of repentaunce is clerely expelled and gone / & destroyed /
god may not than of his iustyce cast that soule a way out of heue~
vnto eternall punyshme~t in hell / but wyll suffer that soule to lyue and to
ioy with hym in heuen in some low and meane place in heuen: all though
that he wyll not suffer thys soule to come to the hyest places / where moost
ioy is in heuen / because it is not co~uenyent that thys soule shuld possede
the hyest ioyes in heuen / because that it is not worthy to be receyued and
admytted therto / for that that yt it somwhat deformed and not worthy
to come to so hyghe a place and rome: but yet in the lowe places & romys
in heuen / this soule not withstandynge it be somwhat deformed / may do
to god there some seruyce and pleasure / and yet there haue a ioyous lyfe /

g

wherewyth thys soule wyll be ryght well contentyd. And therefore syth yt
god by iustyce and equyte may ordeyne thys soule a conuenyent place in
heuen / accordyng as it is worthy and hath deserued: it were than a thyng
frustrate and in vayne for god to ordeyne any place of purgatory / where
that soule shuld be purged for a season / and after that to be restored and
receyued in to heuen / because that god may rewarde that soule in heuen
accordyng to hys deseruynge / and so nedelesse to ordeyne for it any place
of purgacyon.

The solucyon that nothynge vnpurged and vnpure
may remayne and abyde in heuen.

Caput. ix.

Gyngemyn. That obieccion and symylytude which thou hast made
me thynketh is nothyng to purpose / for thou must co~syder that god
in whom is all goodnesse / iustyce / wysdome / vertue and perfeccyon
in hys meruelous workys of creacyon of thynges hathe create and ordered
euery thynge in so good and perfyte an order / that can not be amended.
And hath ordeyned some places of ioy / and some places of punyshment
co~uenient for euery creature / which doth deserue other ye one or the
other: and that he hath ordeyned heuen to be the place of felycyte / where
is all ioy and pleasure wythout payne or dysease / & that thys place where
we & other bestes lyue here vpo~ yerth / is ye place myxed wyth ioy & payne
& yt all creatures lyuynge here somtyme suffer ioye and somtyme payne.
And the low place whyche we call hell / is ye place of eternall punyshment
and payne wythout any ioy or pleasure: and that the place of heue~ where
his pleasure is to be eternally gloryfyed wyth the company of his au~gels
and holy sayntes / is a place of eternall ioy / and by all conuenyent reason
worthy to be so clene / so pure / so fayre / so pleasaunt / so full of ioy and felycyte /
that there can be no place more pure / more clere / more pleasaunt nor
of more ioye / nor of more pleasure / but that place must be so clene of nature /
that it must expell all maner of impuryte & vncle~nes / nor suffer any
thynge therin / that is of any maner of vncle~nes or euyll / or other thynge
vnpleasaunt. For as ye see by experyence as the eyer / whych of yt selfe is
myche more pure and clene than the element of the yerth / yf there be any
corrupt stynkynge water or other humoure vpon yerth / that water or his
moure by the hete of the sonne vapored vp in to the hye regyone of the
eyer / is there so puryfyed that when yt descendyth it is wythout any corrupcyo~
stynke or salt taste / but fresh / swete & clere / that yt can neuer be purer /
so that the hye region of the eleme~t of the pure eyer wyll suffer no water
nor other humour to abyde there / whych is not clene and pure. And
lyke wyse we may beholde thys pure regyon ethereall / where the sonne &
ye other starres re~ne in theyr speres we see them so lyghtsom / so pure and
clene / that it is vnpossyble any corporall thyng to be clener or more pure.

Than syth that god by hys wonderfull power great wysdome and goodnesse
hath created those visible thyngs~ / which appere to vs of such puryte
and clennes that no fylthy nor foule thyng nor other thynge vnpure can
remayne in them or nyghe them / yt semeth than that by all conuenyence
of reason yt must nedys folowe that that gloryous place of heuen / whych
is a place more hygher and excellent than those other places / which be the
regyons elementall and regyons ethereall / and where his mageste is glorifyed /
and eternally honoured by his au~gels and sayntes / must be clene &
pure fayre / and aboue all other places / and that there can be no thynge
suffred to be there / but that whych is all clene and pure wythout any maner
spotte or token of vnclennes / so yt it foloweth that no soule can be suffered
to be there yt shulde haue any spotte or token of synne in yt / or any
maner of deformyte whyche shulde be in any wyse vnpleasaunt. For all
though that there be places in heue~ some pure and clene / and some more
pure & some more clene. And that there be ioyes / as som great ioy / & som
greatter ioye: yet there can be no places there / wherof one shuld be pure
and a nother foule / nor wherof one shulde be swete and a nother shuld be
stynkynge / nor no lyfe wherof one shulde be a ioyfull lyfe / and a nother a
paynfull lyfe / nor that no soule can be there / wherof one shulde be a pure
and clene soule / and a nother vnpure and vnclene / nor yt one soule shulde
be fayre pleasau~t and goodly to beholde / and a nother to be foule and deformed
and vglye / nor yt one soule there shuld suffer ioy / and a nother to
suffer sorow. So now it foloweth that when yt a man hath commytted a
mortall synne and after taken repentaunce / and dyeth by the whych he is
heled of that foule infyrmyte: but yet the spottys and tokens therof do remayne /
for lack of full satysfaccyon / god of his iustyce may not conde~pne
hys soule to eternall payne in hell for that offence / whych is purged & put
away / and the soule therof clerely discharged and made hole: and yet god
by his iustyce nor by hys dyscrete wysdome & goodnes ought not immediatly
to receyue that soule in to that clene and most pure place in heuen
to accompany wyth those pure au~gelles and sayntes that be there in that
place / where there can be no thyng but that whych is all puryfyed & clene
vntyll such tyme / that yt soule be clensed and puryfyed of those toke~s and
spottes of synne / whych remayne in that soule / which toke~s and spottes
is euer a great deformyte to ye soule as long as they do therin remayne /
Therfore by all co~uenyent reason it must nedys folowe / that besyde that
gloryous and ioyfull place of heuen / and also besyde that myserable & sorowfull
place of hell / there muste nedys be a thyrde place of purgacyon /
where the soule must be puryfyed and made clene of suche spottys and tokens
of synne / whych remayne in it / before that yt shalbe able to be receyued
in to that gloryous place in heuen / in whyche place there can be nothynge
suffered to be / but that whyche is all pure and clene wythout any
tokens or spottes of synne or vnclennes.

g 2

An obieccyon / that yf there shuld be any place of purgacyon /
than that place shuld be here in yerth / or
ellys yf there be any other place / where is that
place of purgatory. Caput x.

COmyngo. This is a meruelous sore & hye reason that thou haste
made / but yet me thynketh / though that besyde heuen and hell ther
shuld be a thyrde place of purgacyon / yt shuld seme conuenye~t that
that place shulde be here in yerth / and that man whych hath so offended /
whom god wolde haue to be purged therfore / and after that to be receyued
and admytted to ioye wyth hym in heuen / may be most conuenyently
purged therof here in yerth / and whyle his soule is ioyned with his body /
because that the soule offendeth beyng with the body / therfore it were
most conuenient that that soule shuld be purged and punysshed with the
body. And also because that god hath ordeyned heuen to be a place of infynyte
ioye / & hell to be a place of infynyte payne / and yerth to be a place
myxte somtyme of ioye / and somtyme of payne / whyche neuer endureth
but for a tyme that shall haue an ende. Therfore it is most conuenyent yt
the place of purgatorye shulde be here in yerth / because it is the place ordeyned
for payne whyche shall haue an ende. And also that purgatorye &
punyshment here in yerth shuld be a great good example to all other me~
here lyuynge / to put them in fere to do any lyke offence / and shulde cause
many men the rather to absteyne from the doynge and commyttynge of
any such lyke offence and synne.