To Mr. T.B.

SIR,
I. BY Letter you desire to have shewed
unto you the Catholick Church
distinct from the Church of Rome,
and those in communion with her:
which was at our meeting manifested
as plainly, as we can dinstinguish
the whole body from a particular
member, or a particular
member from the whole body.
The body is one thing, the member another; the body
is totum compositum, the whole fabrick; the member but a
part of it. And this is the particular Church of Rome to
the whole Catholick. Every member as St. Chrysostome
teacheth hath a proper and a common vertue:
it hath likewise a peculiar, and a common form or shape.
The hand hath not the shape or strength of the whole
man; and yet by the meer shape we know, it is a mans
hand. And though we know the Church of Rome by her
form, that is, by her Faith and Government, to be a
Church; yet hath she not the form or virtue of the
whole Church, be she never so Catholick. If she have,
then must the Catholick borrow her life and being from
Rome, and not Rome from the Catholick. If this particular
had the virtue of the whole, then Timothy and
Titus might not have given Orders, or censured Delinquents,

A 3

or redressed what was amisse at Ephesus and Crete,
but by virtue of a Commission from the Church or
Bishop of Rome. And yet St. Paul besought Timothy
to abide at Ephesus, that he might charge some those within
his Diocese that they teach no other doctrine then St. Paul
had delivered. And for this cause left he Titus at Crete,
thathe should redresse what was amisse, and ordain Presbyters,
as hee had appointed him; not as the Church of Rome
directed him. And this was before he had visited that
City.
2. But if the Church of Rome be the Catholick Church,
Where was the Catholick Church before she became a
Church? Was there one; or was there none? If one,
then was not that the Romane; since there was yet no
such Church. If none, what were those Churches
throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria? This
was before the Apostles parted from one another to
teach all Nations: hitherto we find them in these quarters,
and no other. And yet at that time the Catholick
Church was in being, unlesse the Apostles Creed deceive
us. For what was framed at Jerusalem, before the
Apostles went about their great work. And for this
end was it made, that it might be credentibus regula,
a rule for beleevers; whosoever became Christian, he was
to beleeve the Catholick Church: which he could not beleeve,
if it were not in being.
3. Secondly, if Rome be the Catholick Church, then if
she be Orthodox, the Catholick Church is Orthodox; if
she be Hereticall of Schismaticall, the whole Church
must be Hereticall or Schismaticall, as she is. So the
Church shall take denomination from her; with her she
shall stand and fall. Great reason then we should have
an eye to Rome, and relie upon her. But this Church
hath been miserably Schismaticall and Hereticall. Schismaticall;
as is to be seen in Platina and Onuphrius; when
she had sometimes two, sometimes three Bishops together;
a double, a treble-headed, a monstrous Church.
Whereas in one City there ought to be but one
Bishop. That she hath been sufficiently hereticall, is
confessed by your own men. And as long as she was in
this state, shee was no Church; Hæresis enim Christi
sponsa non est, Heresie is no Spouse of Christ; her members
not so much as Christians; if we may beleeve Tertull.
and St. Cyprian. And St. Austin saith Hæretici non pertinent
ad Ecclesiam Catholicam; Hereticks doe not so much as
belong to the Catholick Church. So then they that confesse
Rome to be Hereticall, grant her to be no Church. And
yet who dares say, that the Catholick Church was Schismaticall
or Hereticall, because Rome was so? This
were to deny, to destroy the Church. For if Schismaticall,
she is no body, but shivers. If Hereticall in the chief
fundamentalls, at least, Where's the Church? Unlesse,
as there were false Apostles, so yee will have false
Churches. Such Churches we will have nothing to doe
with, unlesse it be to pray for them, and to advise them
to remember, from whence they are fallen, to repent, and
to doe their first works.
4. Thirdly, if Rome be the Catholick Church, if any
thing be amisse in any particular, the fault is hers, and
she ought to mend it. If any mans hand fester, or foot
be lame, if a remedy be not sought, the foot or hand
are not blamed, but the man, because in time they
were not looked to. The reason is, because not the
hand or foot, but the man hath both discretion and
power to provide a remedy for every member, that is
amisse. Thus is it with the Church. This is enough to
give any rationall Christian satisfaction, that Rome is
not the Catholick Church. More I should not have written;
but that you charge me with certian Propositions;
which, you presume may stand you in much stead, to
prove the contrary. I shall therefore descend to the
Propositions, and your Inferences drawn from thence.
The first whereof is this, as you are pleased to pen
them.
You grant the Catholick Church to be always viz.
from the Apostles time to this time, visible.

5. I doe so, both in and from the Apostles time to this
present day. But I doe not say, that it was always
visible in one and the same place; no, not at Rome it
selfe, you think so well of. It hath been more then
once, even in that very City under a bushel. The Sun
it self is so often under a cloud, that it is not seen in
these parts; and yet visible it is in other places.
The Church is likened to the Sun, which hath many
rayes, and yet but one light. That light is not always
in the same place, it removes with the Sun: the beams
may decay, but the Sun it selfe and the light thereof
cannot perish. The Church hath fruitfully encreased
far and wide into a multitude: but how many of these
have crumbled into nothing? It is much like the Sea,
which loseth in one place, and gains in another, and
yet continues the same Sea. Adulierari non potest Sponsa
Christi, incorrupta est, & pudica; the Spouse of Christ
cannot be corrupted. Corrupt our selves we may, and
depart from her integrity; but we cannot rob her of her
essence, or integrity.
6. The Church of God, I say, is always visible, and yet
not to every eye: sometimes it is invisible not onely to
ordinary eyes, but even to the best of men. Elijah
himself complained to the Lord, that he, even he onely
was left alone to serve the Lord: whereas all other, in
his esteem, were become Idolaters; no face of a Church
left in all Israel. But the Prophet was mistaken, the
Lord assures him, that there were 7000 in Israel,
whose knees had never bowed to Baal. And yet God
tells him not where, nor what their names. A visible
Church there was at that time, though not visible to Elijah.
Visible it was to Obadiah, and to them that met in
private Congregations as in times of persecution, and
with us at this day these knew one another. And if
that great Prophet could not discern the Church in his
own days, and countrey; would you have me, who
am no such Prophet, to point out, where the Church
was, when the Western parts were over-run with Popish
errors? Though I be not able to shew where, yet it is
more then propable, that there were in this very Island
7000 souls, that were not tainted with those errors.
It is enough for us to prove them to be errors, to be
against Scriptures, and the received sense of the Ancient
Church; and to cleanse our selves from them.
7. Certainly, under the Law God was not without
a Church in Judah. Yet shew me, he that can, where
the visible Church was, when Rehobam forsook the
Law of the Lord, and all Israel with him. When the
Prophet complained, that for a long season Israel had
been without the true God, without a teaching Priest, and without
the Law. When Ahaz shut up the dores of the
Temple, and made Altars for false Gods in every corner
of Jerusalem, and in the Cities of Judah. When in
the Courts of the Lords house, Manasseh built Altars
for all the host of heaven: Had God at that time no
visible Church, think you? or were those ignorant, faithlesse,
idolatrous wretches the visible Church? Neither
of these can be; needs therefore must God in those days
have a visible Church, though the Scripture expresseth
not where, nor who they were. And can we expect,
that mans writings should be more exact then Gods
records?
8. But God made a promise to the Apostles, that
he would be with them alwayes, and with their successors,
to the end of the world. He did so; and without question
he made good his promise, although he were neither
with Liberius, Honorius, nor John 22. I have
learned of Gregory Naz. to distinguish
between successors in place, and successors
in faith. He will be with those that succeed
in faith and function; not with
those that succeed in function onely, and

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not in faith. Let him sit in what throne he will, he
is an adversary to Christ, if he be not a successor in the
Orthodox faith. He that succeeds St. Peter, or any good
Bishop, and is of a contrary Religion, he succeeds
them, just as a disease follows health, as darknesse
follows light, and frenzie steps into the chair of wisdome.
9. Boast not too much of this promise: the like was
made to the former Priesthood. To Phineas the Lord
bequeathed the Covenant of an everlasting Priesthood; that is,
to him and his seed, as long as that law was to endure.
And yet we see, that for a long season Israel was without
the true God, without a teaching Priest, and without the
Law. Where then was the Church? where the Promise?
Urijah the High-Priest built that Altare Damascenum,
that abominable Altar, according to the pattern
of that at Damascus. On that he offered, and did
many other things contrary to Gods law. Abiathar
was a Traitour; Jason a Simoniack, and a prophane
wretch; and Menelaus one of the veryest beasts that
ever lived. Where was then the Priesthood? where the
true Religion? And yet we dare not say, that God
failed of his promise, or wanted a visible true Church
in those dayes. But if it be inquired in whom, and
where; it will be an hard matter for either or both of
us to manifest. Truth it is, God will continue a Church,
though bad people and Priests abuse it. He, and onely he,
can discern, and distinguish the wheat from the chaffe,
and those few in Sardis, that had not defiled their
garments, from the multitude that had. The world
groaned, and wondred to see it self all Arian. But God
sees not as man sees; at that time he had a Church,
and his eyes beheld it; though it were very difficult
for man to point it out. Visible it was to some, and
those not over many. Thus much for the Visibility of
the Church.
10. It is time now to look toward the second proposition,
wherewith you charge me; which is this,
You say, the Church of Rome, and those in communion
with her, are not the Catholick Church, because
they have grievously erred, and in one fundamentall
at least.

What ever I said, I am sure, I have manifested, that
the Church of Rome, and those particular Churches in her
communion, are not, cannot be, the Catholick Church, no
more then some parts of man may be said to be the
whole man, or some parts of an house to be the
whole house. But as for the reason, which you impose
upon me, I am certain, I never gave it. I never said,
these were not the Catholick Church, because they have grievously
erred, and in one fundamentall at least. This reason
was not, could not be given for that purpose; neither
was it needfull, or usefull. For had it never erred, the
Catholick it could not be, a Catholick it might be; a part,
but not the whole. If these, you speak of, be the whole,
all other are excluded: and that, your party most uncharitably
aimes at. Take Rome at the best, at the highest,
she hath her priviledges among many; not over all: other
Provinces must enjoy theirs. And divers Bishops have as
large territories, as ever justly had your Pope of Rome.
He that hath a desire to know the truth of this, let him
consult the 6 Canon of Nice; the 2 & 3 of Constantinople;
the 28 of Calcedon, with the 28 & 125 Canons of
the African Code: and he shall quickly discern, that Rome
in those days was no such wondrous Church. She,
no lesse then others, had her bounds, which she might
not passe.
11. But, I remember, well, I said, that if there were
no other cause, then the maiming of the Lords Supper,
I could not communicate with the Church of Rome.
The reason is, because our Saviour ordained it to be
given in both kinds; and ye have most sacrilegiously
robbed the Laity of his blood. By this means yee make
the people unfit for martyrdome, if St. Cyprian mistake

B 2

not. Quomodo saith that Father ad martyrii poculum
idoneos facimus, si non eos ad BIBENDUM prius in Ecclesia
POCULUM DOMINI jure communicationis admittimus?
How can we make them fit for the cup of Martyrdome,
if first in the Church we doe not by right of communion
admit them to DRINK THE CUP OF THE
LORD? And againe, Quomodo possumus propter
Christum sanguinem fundere, qui sanguinem Christi erubescimus
bibere? No, may the people say, we are not ashamed to
drink it; but yee are ashamed to give it us to drink; at
least to acknowledge the wronk, that yee have done us.
We have a right to drink it, but yee have barred us from
our right. Thus yee have gone against the sense and
practice of the Primitive Church. Yee have also departed
from the Institution of Christ, from which the
Sacraments receive their force and virtue. What efficacy
then can your half Sacrament be of?
12. But for your further satisfaction, I adde; First,
The Church of Rome, and those in communion with her, are
not the Catholick Church exclusive, solely excluding others;
however divers of that faction appropriate that title to
them. And yet we grant Rome herself to be a Church,
that is, a member of the one Catholick, though an erronious
member; as a vicious man is a man, or as an ulcerous
member is a part of the body. Though we see her
errors, we deny not her essence; but wish she were cleansed
from her corruptions. Secondly, a particular Church
cannot be styled the Universall, and Catholick signifies nothing
else; no more then Socrates can be said to be Homo
in specie, all, or the onely man. Neither can we affirm,
that man is the onely animal, the onely sensitive creature,
though the most excellent. Yet in the third place,
though we deny you to be the Catholick, we acknowledge
you to be a Church. For that Church, which receives the
Scripture as a Rule of faith, though but as a partiall and imperfect
Rule; and both the Sacraments as instrumentall causes and seals of
grace, though they adde more, and misuse these; yet cannot but be
a true Church in essence.
13. It is not then every abuse of Scripture and Sacraments;
but the razing of the foundation, that
ruines a Church, and makes that to be none,
which heretofore was one. Of the essence of
the Church, I take to be these two; the
Catholick faith, and the Apostolick government.
The former is the soul of the Church, and
gives it life; the other is as the sinews thereof,
which knit the members together firmly into
one body. Without the former it is built
upon sand; and without the other it cannot
last. Without the Catholick faith we cannot please
God; and without a Bishop the Sacraments will quickly
cease. Yea the very communion of the Church must fail;
since, according to St. Austin's rule, we may not so
much as hold communion with any, that have not Episcopall
Sees. Since then yee professe the Catholick faith, and
continue the Apostolick government, though mixt with corruptions
and encroachments, we grant you to be
a true, but not Orthodox Church. For Orthodox Christians
are keepers of integrity, and followers of right
things. Of which the Church of Rome is neither.
14. If then, according to your charge, I did say,
that the Romane Church had grievously erred, and in one fundamentall
at least; yet as then, so now, I am, have been,
and ever shall be loath, to deny her to be a true Church;
since without the Church, no salvation. If you will make
her no Church, or a false Church, and put your selves
out of all hope, I can pity you, but not help it. Indeed,
the pride of that See is such, she will be all, or
nothing; either the Catholick, or no Church. It is not
therefore to her content, to yield her to be a Church, since
that implyes no more, then that she is a member of the
whole. Alas, the Universall she cannot be; that consists
of many Churches, as the whole earth consists of many
lands and countreys; and yet but one Earth, and one
Church. Neither of them is couped up, or confined
within the largest Continent. For my part, I professe

B 3

with St. Austin, that I am in that Church, cuius membra
sunt omnes illæ Ecclesie, quas ex laboribus Apostolorum natus
atque firmatas simul in literis canonicis novimus, the members
whereof are all those Churches, which in Scripture we know to
have been planted and confirmed by the Apostles industry. And
their communion, with Gods assistance, I shall never
forsake, whether in England, or elsewhere; unlesse
these forsake the truth. I shall never leave the Universall
to side with any particular Church. And I would advise
your Masters to take heed, lest while, with the
Dogge in the Fable, they catch at too much, they
lose all.
15. The Church according to St. Cyprian is like
a Tree, whose boughs are many, but the body one,
firmly rooted. Ab arbore frange ramum, fructus germinare
non poterit; break the best arme from this body, it will
bear no fruit for heaven; the branch it self will wither,
and rot, and come to nothing. Hath that Church, you
speak of, been heretofore a glorious and happy Church?
Glory not too much in that, boast not over the rest of
the branches, that have been lesse successefull; thou bearest
not the root, but the root thee; thou art but graffed in, as
the rest were: and with them thou partakest of the root
and fatness of the olive tree. Remember also, though there
be many branches, yet there is but one originall, one
root, that yeelds sap, and life, and fruit to every bough,
great or small. Suppose thou be the top-bough, yet
rend not, suffer not thy selfe to be rent, from this body.
Take heed of this, lest thou become fewell for that dreadfull
fire.
16. That the Church of Rome hath grievously and dangerously
erred, I need no witnesses but your own family.
Stapleton justifies, that there is scarce any sin, that can
be thought by man Heresie onely excepted with which that
See hath not been foully stained; especially from the 800 years
after Christ. But Stella, and Almain grant freely,
that some of the Bishops of Rome did fall into heresie;
and so ceased to be heads of the Church. And though
some of that Churches errors at this day be dangerous to
salvation, yet that judicious Bishop, I then spake of,
would not venture to set down, what errors in doctrine may
give just cause of separation in this body, or the parts of it one
from another. Neither shall I, by Gods grace, be over-bold
in this point.
17. The points fundamentall are contained in the Creed;
which is as the Councell of Trent speaks Et fundamentum
firmum & unicum, not the firm alone, but the onely
foundation. And Bellarmine resolves, that All things
simply necessary for all mens salvation, are expressed in the Creed
and Decalogue. If yee have erred in any of these, and
grown obstinate in this error, yee are become an Hereticall
Church in battering the foundation. And yet we must take
notice, that every thing fundamentall is not of a like
neernesse to the foundation, nor of equall primenesse in the faith.
For there are quædam prima credibilia, certain prime
principles of faith, in the bosome whereof all other Articles
lie wrapped and folded up. What ever Church denies
or disbeleives any of these, ceaseth to be not onely Orthodox,
but Catholick, and so no member of the true Church;
since every spirit, that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is
come in the flesh, is not of God, but is that spirit of Antichrist.
Now, if yee have at any time denied this Jesus Christ
to be the true God and eternall life, ye were at that time no
Church, but an Antichristian Synagogue. But this did
Marcellinus, and Liberius, and John 22. all Bishops of Rome.
In those times therefore yee were no Church, but
an Antichristian Synagogue. Hæresis enim Christi
Sponsa non est since Heresie is not the Spouse of Christ.
18. If you doubt of the Minor, Stella makes that good;
for he testifies, that Marcellinus sacrificed to Idols; that
Liberius assented to the Arians; that is, he denyed our Saviour
to be of one and the same substance with the Father:
and that John 22. affirmed, that God the Son is greater
then the Father and the Holy Ghost. These batter and
undermine the foundation; which whatever Congregation
does, it apostatizeth, and is no Church. While then Rome
did, and beleeved thus, neither she, nor any of those
that communicated with her in these, or any of these
heresies, were so much as a Church, much lesse the
Catholick Church. Especially since all these are contrary
to the Creed and Catholick faith: which faith except
every one doe keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he
shall perish everlastingly. This Creed our Church appeals
to, whether Catholick, or not Catholick; this is the faith
she desires to be saved by. He, that faithfully beleives this
Creed, is a Catholick; but he, that beleives it not, is no
Catholick, neither can he be saved. I am one of Athanasius
his Catholicks; and with Gods blessing I shall
live and die so.
19. But I know, what you drive at. You were pleased
to ask, where our Church was before the Reformation?
It was answer'd, in the Catholick. Next, you inquired,
whether the Catholick were alwayes visible? The reply
was affirmative; both here, and in other places. But before
the Reformation we communicated with Rome; and
since we have not. That's no fault of ours; yee will not
suffer us to communicate with you, unlesse we communciate
with your errors. And yet we shall, maugre Satan,
communicate with the Catholick Church, while
with one mind and one mouth we glorifie God, even the Father of
our Lord Jesus Christ, according to this, the Nicene, and the
Apostles Creed. While we pray for the Church Universall,
and for all Bishops, Pastors, and Curates thereof:
While we pray for all Gods people; for all that have erred,
and are deceived; even for our enemies, persecutors,
and slanderers: While we continue the Apostolick government;
and while we not onely receive, but administer
the Sacraments according to Christs holy Ordinance,
we shall be in the communion of the Catholick
Church.
20. Truth it is, as that judicious Bishop told Mr. Fisher,
the cause of the Schisme is yours; for yee thrust us from
you, because we called for Truth, and redresse of abuses. What
was then to be done? must we swallow untruths, and
wink at abuses, that we may collogue and communicate
with you? It had not wont to be so; every Province
had wont to reform it selfe. And so she did not transgresse
the Faith or Canons of the Church Catholick, the
reformation was both legall and commendable. We did
so with our Provinces, following therein the ancient
Canons of the Church, which assure us, that every
Provinciall Synod is to order all things within the Province.
And for full satisfaction, those Fathers of Constantinople
justifie this Canon by the Decrees of the Nicene Councel.
Indeed sometimes it may happen, that the businesse
will prove to be of such consequence and circumspection,
that a Provinciall Synod is not fit to determine it.
What is then to be done? That very Canon says, in
such a case we must not make our addresse to a Generall
Councel; but to a greater Synod of the Bishops of that
Diocese, called together for that purpose. But we must
observe, that in the ancient both Civil and Ecclesiastical
acceptation, a Diocese contains in it many Provinces.
This Councel we ought not to decline, by molesting
the Emperour, or any secular Magistrates, with
complaints; as our late Ministers have done. This is
not canonicall, and the complaint is not to be admitted.
We are therefore to take notice, that the three Britains
were a Diocese of themselves, and had a Præfectus Prætorio
for Civil, and a Primate for Ecclesiastical affaires.
The Primate or Patriarch is the Archbishop of Canterbury.
So then our Reformation is not after any new, or lately
invented model; it is according to the ancient course
and canons of the Church; and therefore justifiable. If
we had taken any other course in our Reformation, we
had done amisse. For according to the Councel of Constantinople,
we had run into an high contempt; 1. by slighting
all the Bishops in this Diocese; 2. by injuring the
Canons; and 3. by subverting the Ecclesiasticall order
and government.
21. In submission to these Canons, the Church did usually
reform both in manners and faith, by Diocesan or

C

Provincial Councels: as is to be seen in the Code of the Universal
Church, in the African Code, in Balsamon and Zonaras, in the
Councels of Spain, and in the Councels of England, set
forth by that pious and worthy Knight Sir Henry Spelman.
Much in this kind is readily presented to every eye by our
learned Archbishop § 24. n. 4. Where you may see this
course approved by your own learned men, Albertus
Magnus, and that famous Chancellour of Paris, to be
not onely lawfull, but sometimes necessary. Indeed to
what purpose is it, to justifie that to be a full, a perfect
Synod, wherein a Metropolitan is present, if it may not
upon just occasion amend, what is amisse within her own
precincts? What is it then a perfect Synod for? Otherwise
Israel must not have reformed without Judah, nor
Judah without Israel. Neither must Laodicea have cast off
her wicked courses, unlesse the rest of the Churches in
Asia would have joyned in the Reformation. They, that
dare say this, are wiser then God Almighty. For he
calls to every one of these in particular, to repent, and
amend within themselves, what is faulty. And though
Timothy had failed of his duty at Ephesus, it had been
no excuse for Titus to wink at abuses and disorders
in Crete. Though Israel transgresse, yet let no Judas
sinne.
22. Hitherto my Propositions, as you terme them;
from whence you inferre, as a necessary consequence,
thus;

Then by your own saying, the Catholick Church must
be distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in
her communion.

It must be so, just as a reasonable creature is distinct
from Socrates, the species from the individuum, or particular
person. Socrates is a reasonable creature; but not all,
not the onely reasonable creature: every individual person
is as much man, as much a reasonable creature, and
hath as much of man in him, as Socrates. This will be
the more easily discerned, if we look upon St. Paul's comparison,
who likens the Church to a body consisting
of many members. One member is not the body,
nor the body one member, but many. The body receives
not life from the members, but every member from the
body. The body can live without the hand, or foot, or eye;
indeed without all these: but none of these can live, when
sever'd from the body. The Catholick Church hath subsisted
without the Church of Rome, but the Church of Rome cannot
subsist without the Catholick. The Church did stand
without Rome, before Rome was a Church. And the Church
was visible in the time of Marcellinus, Liberius, and John 22.
when Rome was no member thereof. Adulterari non
potest Sponsa Christi; though Rome defile her selfe, the
Spouse of Christ is not, cannot be made an Harlot. The
tree is sound, though the leaves fall, and one or more
branches be broken off. The fountain flows comfortably,
though a rivulet be cut off. The reason is, because
Christ, and no particular Church, is the fountain of
living waters, that spring up into everlasting life.
and they that seek to him for this water, as they ought,
shall be sure to have it. Or, as St. Cyprian speaks, the Church
is luce Domini perfusa, she hath her light not from
Rome, but from that true light, which enlightens every
man, that comes into the world. And we shall be no longer
the light of the world, then we are furnished with this light.
23. So then, since you will needs have it so, the time
was when there was a necessity for the Catholick Church, not
onely to be distinct, but divers from the Church of Rome,
and those in her communcion; otherwise there had been no
Church. I shall give you a satisfactory instance. When
Liberius Bishop of Rome turned Arian, to recover liberty,
and an honorable Bishoprick; when all Italy and Spain
sided with him in that heresie, when was the Catholick distinct
from Rome, and those in her communion. For these if
we may beleive St. Austin and Tertullian had no
share in the Church, they were not so much as Christians,
because Hereticks. St. Hilary of Poictieurs lamented the

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infamous lapse of this Bishop, professing publickly thus,
Ex eo intra nos tantum communio Dominica continetur; from
that time forward the Lords communion is continued AMONG
US ONELY. Onely us? And who are these? that he
clears suddenly after in these words; Quidam ex vobis firmissima
fidei constantia INTRA COMMUNIONEM
SE MEAM CONTINENTES; SE A CÆTERIS
EXTRA GALLIAS ABSTINUERUNT:
Some of you, with a most firm constancy of
faith, containing themselves within my communion, abstained
from others without France. Here then was no communion
with Rome, unlesse you can prove Rome to be in France;
and yet, I hope, a Catholick communion. Boast not then too
much of the Romane Church. Wee see in what state it
hath been; and into the same state, without Gods great
mercy, it may fall again. And when such cause is given,
it shall be lawfull for us in like manner, to hold
communion within our selves, in the three Britains, even
in England onely. And now, I think, I have shewed you
the Catholick Church distinct from the Church of Rome, and
those in her communion; such a one, as would have nothing
to doe with Rome, while Hereticall.
24. I have done with the Propositions: your desire remaines,
which requires a large library, and a younger
man; for your words are these;

Wherefore I desire to be shewn the Catholick Church
distinct from the Church of Rome, and those in her
communion, for the last 1100 years.

What? will no lesse serve the turn then 1100 years;
and those together? what's the meaning of this? I never
undertook any such thing; neither, as I know, hath
this Church, or any of the Fathers thereof said any such
thing. Our Articles acknowledge the Church of
Rome to be a Church, and call her so. But withall we
say, that those of her communion have erred, not
onely in their living and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters
of faith. And this hath been prettily well proved out
of your own men. So a Church it is, though erronious.
We have never declared her to be no Church;
neither have our Articles hitherto charged her with Heresie;
but with fond doctrines, vainly invented, and founded
upon no warranty of Scripture. Yea, something we blame
you with, that is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture.
Foure opinions of this kind my Lord of Canterbury
taxeth you with; viz. 1. Transubstantiation. 2. The
administration of the blessed Sacrament to the Laity in one kind.
3. Invocation of Saints: and, 4. Adoration of Images. Ye
have not hitherto quitted your selves of this Inditement;
and while his book stands unconfuted, I shall beleeve, that
ye are justly charged with these unsound and uncatholick
doctrines.
25. Besides, we acknowledge, that in the visible
Church the evill be ever mingled with the good. That sometime
the evill have chiefe authority in the ministration of the
Word and Sacraments. These we deny not to be visible
members of the Church; but grant, that the effect of
Christs Ordinance is not taken away by their wickednesse.
Though these be bad in and to themselves, oft-times their
calling does good to others, like the Scribes and Pharisees
in Moses chaire. We are not then so forward to make
a separation, as ye are taught to beleeve. Indeed, hardly
any but the Church of Rome, hath been so touchy, as to
excommunicate whole Churches upon flight occasions.
What a stir did Bishop Victor keep about the observation
of Easter? He excommunicated divers Churches, because they
would not stoop to his lure. Verum ista cæteris omnibus
parum placebant: but this was little pleasing to the rest of the
Bishops, and among them, to that famous Bishop of Lyons,
Ireneus. Who with divers other sharply checked and
reproved him for it. These consider'd, that no member
can cut off another without mischief to the whole body,
even to it self. And the hand ought not to doe it without
a commission from the head. For there is no Bishop of
Bishops, as ye conceive: neither may any one Bishop excommunicate

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another of his own proper authority.
This is the work of a Synod of Bishops. Whoever does
it of his own head, offends against the practice of the
Church, the Canons, and Scripture it self.
26. Thus also Bishop Steven, though otherwise a
good man, carried himself very high, about re-baptizing
Hereticks. Whether zeal, or that vain conceit of St. Peter's
Chair transported him, I know not; but this I am
sure of, he excommunicated all those, that re-baptized
Hereticks. But what said that great Bishop of Cappadocia,
Firmilianus, Tripsum excidisti, noli te fallere, mistake
not thy self, thou Bishop of Rome; while thou goest about
to cast out others, by this presumption thou hast
cut off thy self from the body of Christ, which is his
Church. In those days he had no such power. How he since
came by it, is laid open to your and every bodies eyes, by
Archbishop Lawd, § 25. n. 12.
27. But why for the last 1100 years? Is it because ye
dare not trust to the former ages? Wherein we finde
Zepherinus to be a Montanist, Marcellinus an Idolater,
Liberius an Arian, and Vigilius an Eutychian. All Bishops of
Rome, but not Catholicks. Needs therefore in their times
must the Catholick Church be distinct from the Church of Rome.
Or is it because for tryall of the truth of Religion, I appealed
to the 500. years next after our Saviour? I professe,
I did, and doe so; because it is common in these
dayes, even with those that conscientiously pretend to
truth, not to be content with the rule of faith,
which was once delivered to the Saints, and received
from them by the Primitive Church, and so transmitted
to posterity. But we have an itching after new inventions;
and our glory it is, either to adde, or alter, or
pare off something from Religion. These courses I abhorre
with a perfect hatred, and am taught to doe so by Tertullian,
and Vincent. Lirinensis. Yea, some of your owne
Bishops have resolved, that Religion admits of no
other course but this, ut omnia, qua fide a Patribus suscepta
forent, eadem fide filiis consignarentur; that all things be
preserved for the children with the same faith, wherewith
they were received from the primitive Fathers. And
we must not lead Religion whither we please; but rather
we must follow whither that leads. This was the
resolution of Stephen Bishop of Rome, an holy and prudent
man, as Vincentius termes him. Xistus likewise
and Celestinus are of the same minde, they will endure
no innovations, no additions to Antiquity. Oh, that
Rome had always kept close to this rule; then should we
have had no such raptures in the Church, as we now complain
of, and bewaile.
28. And reason good we have to appeal to Antiquity,
which is not partiall towards you, or us, but indifferent
to both. She never held it meet to maintain
the faction, or conspiracy of any one Province;
but she stood up in defense of the whole Church,
and not for any part thereof. And he can be no good
Christian, that does otherwise. St. Cyprian is altogether
for this course; if any thing be amisse, he sends us
to the spring head, to finde out the fault. The like
counsell is given by Ireneus, If difference arise about
any small question, nonne oporteret in antiquissimus recurere
Ecclesias, in quibus Apostoli conversati sunt, & ab iis de
præsenti questione sumere, quod certum & quod liquidum est?
ought we not to have recourse to the most ancient Churches,
not to that in being wherein the Apostles themselves conversed;
and from those to take that which is certain and clear
about the present question. Observe; from thence we shall
have that, which is certain. Why then shall we content
our selves with uncertainties? That therefore the
third Generall Councell might deal clearly, and upon sure
grounds with Nestorius, it took this very course; holding
it to be Catholicissimum, fælicissimum, atque optimum
factu, most Catholick, most happy, and meetest to be
done, to take into consideration the sentences of those
holy Fathers, that were before them. Those they took
to be their Masters, their Counsellors, Witnesses and Judges.
Their doctrine they held close to, their counsel they followed
to their testimony they gave credit, to their judgment they submitted,
and answerably thereto passed sentence upon the difference
then in agitation. Blame not us then, if we appeal
to the Fathers, and by their unanimous writings
judge of Religion, that so we may keep to the old Rules,
and avoyd the blasphemies of profane novelty. This was the
proper, the onely way then known, and is now, readily
to discern, without prejudice, presumption, or partiality,
whether ye or we be in the right; what is Orthodox,
and what not. At this tribunall let us stand, or
fall.
29. All this will hardly prevail with you. For say
you if this cannot be shewn, it will necessarily follow, those were
the Catholick Church, or else the Catholick Church was not alway
visible.
Sir, if you can distinguish between man in specie and Socrates,
you may quickly distinguish between the Catholick
Church and Church of Rome. For as man is substantially
predicated of many differing in number; so is the Church.
Though St. Peter be a man, yet is he not the onely man;
Judas is a man, as much as he; they both communicate
in the same essence, in the same definition; the one is
as much a reasonable creature as the other. And it will
not excuse the Church of Rome from being erronious, because
it is called a Church, and hath the same definition
with other Churches. Good and bad, Orthodox and
Erronious come not into the definition. The onely definition,
or description, of the Catholick Church, that I find in
Scripture, is this, The Church is the pillar and ground of
truth. From whence I argue, thus;
That Church, which hath erred, is not the pillar and
ground of truth.
But the Church of Rome hath erred: Ergo,
The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of
truth.
The Major is undenyable; the Minor I prove thus:
That Church which hath professed Montanisme, Arianisme,
Eutychianisme, hath erred.
But the Church of Rome hath professed all these.
Ergo, The Church of Rome hath erred.
The Major is clear; and the Minor is sufficiently proved,
§18.27. It follows therefore neccessarily, that the Church
of Rome, neither was, nor is the Catholick Church. And
yet the Catholick Church was then visible, when the Church
of Rome fell from the Catholick faith, and ceased to be a
Church. Montanus, and his Enthusiasmes, were censured,
and condemned by the Bishops of Asia, in divers
Synods. In those dayes, when Arianisme prevailed at Rome,
the Catholick Church was visible at Alexandria, in
Sardinia, in France, and other places; all which adherred
to the Nicene Creed. We know, that Eutyches
was condemned at Constantinople, though his heresie were
received at Rome. And those heresies which were broached
in your beloved City by John 22. were at that
time detested in most places of Christendome. Thus
the Catholick Church was alwayes visible, when Rome it
selfe failed.
30. I have done with your argument; and now,
without offence I shall return it upon you thus.
I desire to be shewed the body of Christ distinct
from his hand, or arme. And if this cannot be
shewed, it will necessarily follow, that those are the
body of Christ; or else Christ hath not alwayes had
a body.
This will seem a strange Argument; and yet, what
answer you make, the same shall I requite you with.
For the Church is the mysticall body of Christ. And
his body is not one member, but many. The
whole body is not the hand; nor the hand the whole
body. For as the body is one, and hath many members;
and all the members of that one body, being many, are one
body; so also is Christ. And so is his Church, into
which we are baptized. So then as St. Chrysostome hath
it Et multa unum sunt; & unum est multa; these many
are one, and this one is many; many members, and yet

D

but one body. As they are a body, all these are but
one: but as every one of these are a severall part,
so they are different. No part alone by and of it selfe
can make a body: the best member wants the concurrence
of the rest, even skin and haire, to make a complete
body. In this the meanest member bears a part, and
the best does no more.
31. The thruth is, I may say to you, as St. Paul heretofore
to the Corinthians; Vos estis corpus Christi, &
membra ex parte, yee are the body of Christ, and members in
part, or members of a member, of the Western Church,
and ye are no more. All Churches throughout the
world, and yours among the rest, are members of the
body of Christ; of that body, which is the Church Catholick.
And every one of these must doe their parts,
that belong unto them, that the body continue one,
and that there be no schisme therein. For though
St. Paul be pleased to call the Corinthians the body of
Christ, yet as St. Chryostome observes, that Church alone
was not the whole body; but the Catholick dispersed through the
whole world. He saith therefore IN PART, or FOR
PART; that so they may understand themselves to be but
pars quædam, some part of that body, which is made up of
all Churches. That so we may endeavour not onely to have
peace among our selves, but with the whole Church throughout
the earth; since we are all members of this Catholick body.
God give all of us grace to learn this lesson; and to
remember, that the foot is no lesse a part, then the eye:
and that neither of these alone, nor yet both in conjunction
can make a body, but as they are conjoyned
with the rest of the members. Content your selves
then, ye are but membra de membro, members in part,
members of a member: ye must be knit to the other
parts, before ye can grow up into a body. Indeed had
there been no other but your selves, the Church had
been utterly extinct, when time was, not so much as a
sound member left.
32. Now since you presse so for the last 1100 yeers,
give me leave to tell you, in what state Rome was, for a
great part of that time, you call for. From 800 yeers
after Christ she hath been foulely stained with all sins almost
imaginable. Schisme was raised there, and maintained
with bribery, and bloud enough, if Platina and
Onuphrius speak right. Stella and Almain charge
her with heresie. And Lira professeth, that many of
the chief therein, and the Popes themselves did apostatize from
the faith. Five he names, 1. Zepherinus a Montanist:
2. Marcellinus an Idolater: 3. Liberius an Arian: 4. Vigilius
an Eutychian: and 5. Honorius a Monothelite. Genebrard tells us, of about 50 Popes, that did so degenerate
from the virtue of their predecessors, that they
were Apostatici potius, quam Apostolici, Apostaticall rather
then Apostolicall. And yet this must be the onely Catholick
Church.
33. Aventinus complaines, that for 450 yeers, the
Popes of Rome did so trample all things under their feet,
ut inferos superos in servitutem redegerint, that they brought
heaven and hell to their beck, and made these doe, what
they pleased. And Petrus de Aliaco a Cardinal, that
was present in the Councel of Constance, professeth, that
in those dayes the Church was come to that passe, ut non
sit digna regi nisi a reprobis, that it was worthy to be governed
by none but reprobates. This he speaks of that
Church, you magnifie so much. Baronius confesseth,
that there was a time, when Marozia and her daughter a
couple of lewd strumpets disposed of the Popedome for
many yeers; so that none possessed that Chaire but
Boyes, Fooles, and Knaves: complaining that in those
dayes, Christ lay asleep in the head of the ship. Where was
then the holy Catholick Church? How think you? was it
then at Rome?
34. Alphonsus de Castro testifieth, that divers Romane
Popes were so illiterate, that they were wholly unacquainted
with Grammar. Alvarez Pelagius gives us
this account for his time; Hodie in Ecclesia deficit spiritus

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23

prophetiæ, that the spirit of Prophesie did so faile the Church,
that those words were fulfilled, 3. Reg. 22. I will goe forth,
and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his Prophets.
And yet Baronius professeth, that it is plainly evident,
that it depended upon the Popes pleasure, to enact Decrees of
faith, and to reverse those, that were enacted. Was not here
a Church well governed there while? Was it possible,
such Bishops should reforme abroad, what they
practised, and countenanced at home? In those drowsie,
illiterate, and Apostaticall times, John 22. broached his
damnable heresies. And in those times, in all probability,
were those strange doctrines hatched, and many of those
abuses induced, we now protest against. Somewhere then
the Church was visible, when invisible at Rome. And
occasion is given us to presume, that in this very Island
it was visible; since Erasmus professeth, that in all his
travels he found learned Bishops in England onely. And for
many yeers, we know, the Greek Church had small correspondence
or communion with the Latines; and yet
a visible Church for all this. Neither can I doubt, but
in other countries, even in Italy, there were some learned
Bishops, that knew the Canons of the Church, and
full well understood, that heresie discharges not onely
the Bishop from his Metropolitan, but the Clark from
subjection to his Bishop. The Church of Rome then must
pardon us, if we withdrew our selves from her Bishops,
when they fell into Apostasie, or heresie. And all good
men will acquit us, for reforming abuses at home, according
to our duty. We have good warrant for what we
doe, even the authority of the whole Church representative.

Sir, I have done. If you be offended, that I have
stirred too much in these loathsome puddles, consider,
I beseech you, that you set me upon this unpleasing
task. What I have done, was at your desire, and according
to your directions Christ knows, I have no
private, or by end, in these my writings; it is
your satisfaction and salvation, which I desire, and
endeavour. God of his mercy give a blessing to these
my labours, and to you an humble and discerning
spirit, that you may see the truth, and embrace it:
So prayes
Your unworthy friend
Edward Boughen